19TH CENTURY PIONEERS OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES BOARD

Author	Topic: VISITORS WELCOME AND NEW POSTS CENTER
George Storrs (Moderator)	posted 5/30/01 4:43 PM Welcome to my Discussion Board. This Board is operated by one of Jehovah's Witnesses, for other spiritually mature Jehovah's Witnesses, who desire to study the "deeper things" regarding 19th century history of the organization. This Topic Thread will serve as the location for ALL NEW POSTS relating to existing topics. After a post has been in this NEW POST hread for a few weeks, I will then move it to the appropriate "existing" thread. Please note at the beginning of your post, to which "existing topic" you are responding. If a Visitor wishes to introduce a "new topic", please email your intended post to: George_Storrs@yahoo.com for prior approval. Topics must relate to the 19th century "history" theme of this site, and must NOT speak negatively of Jehovah's Witnesses, the Society, or the "Pioneers". Thanks, and enjoy. Agape!!!
George Storrs (Moderator)	posted 5/30/01 4:50 PM PLEASE HELP US to know whether our time and effort with this site is beneficial by clicking on this Topic thread every time you visit our Board. This is the only place where this Board's format will allow us to place a hit counter, which tells us if anyone is visiting this site. THANKS!!! Free counters provided by Honesty.com.
George Storrs (Moderator)	posted 6/22/01 4:51 PM Adm post!
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George Storrs (Moderator)	posted 7/31/01 1:33 PM Visitors are reminded that New Topics should be submitted for approval, and once approved, posted to this thread. The following new topic was posted as a new thread without approval. We will allow it here, altough it is only vaguely connected to a "Russell" influencer. Since this person "effectively" was CTR's son-in-law, and I do recall seeing his name in some of the early ZWTs, I would welcome biographical/historical info on both he and Rose Ball. Children? Did Rose too separate from the BS? Here is the post: Author T o p Author Topic: E.C. HENNINGES Ian Miller posted 7/31/01 11:28 AM Can anyone shed light on E.C.Henninges - he was sent by Russell to London, Germany and Asutralia, and married the Russell's adopted daughter, Rose Ball. He separated from Russell in 1904 and started the New Covenant Fellowship with M.L McPhail. Post New Topic
Sherlock Holmes	posted 10/24/01 5:28 AM Former Watchtower Pilgrim, M.L. McPhail, supposedly the most loved Bible Student next to Russell, led the "New Covenant" Bible Students in the United States. He published a few books independently, mostly relying heavily on the writings of E.C. Henninges. In 1908 they began publishing The Kingdom Scribe, which ceased publication in 1975, they also published the Berean News, a small newsletter since 1956, which continues till today. Today, this group publishes under the imprint; Berean Bible Students Church.
Sherlock Holmes	posted 10/24/01 5:30 AM In 1908/1909, E.C. Henninges, the Australian Branch Manager of the International Bible Students Association, and M.L. McPhail, Pilgrim for the IBSA and a members of the Chicago Bible Students, withdrew their support causing the second largest split in the Society's history, next only to the 1917 split. He produced a monthly journal The New Covenant Advocate and Kingdom Herald and numerous books, booklets and tracts. After Henninges death, his work continued on for some years, the group and magazine folded by 1944. Most of the New Covenant Bible Students were left to fend for themselves. Many of them did not survive, and splintered off into non-existence. The Free Bible Students as they are called today, do however, make up the largest Bible Student group in Australia. In recent years there has been a resurgence of Free Bible Student rallying under the new leadership of the Christian Millennial Fellowship.
Sherlock Holmes	posted 10/24/01 5:37 AM [R3724 : page 55] REPLY TO A CHRISTADELPHIAN. MELBOURNE, December 21, 1905. DEAR BROTHER RUSSELL:-- Having had occasion several times of late to write to Christadelphian enquirers, I am sending herewith an extract from the latest, and copy of reply to it. If something on this subject could appear in ZION'S WATCH TOWER might prove interesting, and would at least save writing it in a letter. With much love in the Lord, Yours faithfully, in Him, E. C. HENNINGES. ---------- WATCH TOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY: Dear Sirs:--We are exhorted to "try the spirits, whether they be of God," and this test I have carried out with your paper and its teaching, and have found it wanting in the necessary speaking according to the law and the testimony (Isaiah 8:20), so can only conclude that there is no light in it. You are right and scriptural in your contentions that man has not an immortal soul, and "the dead know not anything;" but contending that all will be raised, you teach a thing pleasing to the "flesh," no doubt, but not in accord with truth. [R3725 : page 55] When quoting I Cor. 15:22, consider that altho we are all in Adam by descent, a way is prescribed whereby we may come into Christ, or put on Christ; hence all are not in Christ. Altho what Paul writes to Timothy about Christ dying for all is also true, the death will not benefit those who do not come into Christ in the way laid down. Can you in the light of your teaching explain the following, which show that, at any rate, some will not be raised, thus upsetting your pleasant theory?--Isaiah 26:13,14; Jeremiah 51:39,57; Proverbs 21:16; Psalm 49:12,20. And Ephesians 4:17,18shows that ignorance alienates from God. The Bible is the source of all wisdom, and is the basis of all that is true, so I hope that you will carefully examine the above, and will be pleased to receive a reply, if you deem this worthy of one. Yours sincerely, TASMANIA. REPLY Dear Sir:--We are very sorry that the explanations of the Word given in the columns of ZION'S WATCH TOWER have not appealed to you more strongly than they seem to have done. Yet we are glad that you have not condemned it without having looked at it at least a little. Possibly you would have found more to commend, had you looked further. Experience shows that in teaching the raising of all (both just and unjust), we are not giving out something that is pleasing to the "flesh." The "flesh" prefers to believe that it has a soul that lives while the body is dead, which of course makes the resurrection unnecessary, so that this doctrine is no more acceptable now than it was in the days of the apostles, who preached Jesus and the resurrection. So far as you have expressed yourself on I Cor. 15:22, we are quite in harmony, for we also believe that no one will be made alive, except he have come into Christ in the ways of faith and obedience appointed thereto. The difference between us in this connection would be more in that we understand the Scriptures to teach that all will have an opportunity to come into Christ, and that none will be destroyed in the Second Death without having had this opportunity, and that if some have died on account of Adamic death before the "day" appointed in God's Plan for the bringing of the blessing to all the families of the earth by the Seed of Abraham (Christ and his joint-heirs), and without the enlightenment that God purposes to give to every man (John 1:9; I Tim. 2:4), such will be waked up out of their sleep, will be enlightened, and will be confronted with the responsibility of choosing either to obey the Great Prophet and live, or to disobey Him and perish; whereas your idea seems to be that those who have died in ignorance of the "Only Name," as most of our race have done, will never hear about him and his love for them, which would be contrary to the above Scriptures and many others, and would be a very great pity, as well. If we understand your idea correctly, it would represent the Lord as having given a price sufficient to redeem the whole race, from Adam onward, yet getting an opportunity to bless only about one in a hundred of all those for whom he gave a sufficient price. (I John 2:2.) You would not be very well pleased with the result [R3725 : page 56] of a transaction which would return you 1 pound for every 100 pounds; is it any more reasonable to suppose that the Redeemer of the world should be satisfied with the opportunity to bless only one soul, when by the investment of his entire capital (Himself--I Tim. 2:6) he purchased with a price the right to bless a hundred? Would not such an outcome of the Great Transaction be a reflection on the Justice of the Almighty, to whom the price was paid? Could the first portion of Isaiah 53:11 in such a case be said to be accomplished? We are quite prepared to believe that some now dead will never be raised, namely, those who have wilfully sinned against the sufficient enlightenment of the truth. (Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26-31.) And in so far as these conditions are met by those described in the references you cite from Isaiah, Jeremiah, Proverbs and Psalms, we are bound to believe that they belong to the class that will not be raised. But there were not many in Old Testament times (if there was one) that could fulfil the conditions mentioned in Hebrews, and even since Pentecost the greater part of the world has been left in so much darkness that for them to have come under these conditions has been impossible. A certain amount of enlightenment is necessary, and this has been withheld from the world as a whole. Verse 14 of Psalm 49seems to show that it is necessary to seek some interpretation of verse 19that will not cause the inspired writer to be saying that they shall never be brought back from the dead; for how could the upright have dominion over non-existent persons? Does not the Psalmist rather seem to be saying that those who persist in the foolish ways of the world shall be allowed to go on so, without being enlightened concerning a better way? They shall never see light before death overtakes them; but who can say that they will not see a very great light when the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning? You will see that this is harmonious with all the rest of the Psalm, and with other Scriptures already mentioned; and should it not be the aim of every Bible student so to interpret the Word that all the parts harmonize, and no plain statement need be ignored? Proverbs 21:16seems to express exactly the sentiment elaborated in Hebrews. Observe that this is telling about the man who wanders out of the way of understanding. It refers, therefore to one who has been enlightened; and whatever it may say about him, it teaches nothing concerning those who have never been in the way of understanding, which has been the condition of most of the race. In Jeremiah 51:39,57, the word "perpetual" is translated from the Hebrew word "olam." Now, I doubt not that you have often explained to those not so far enlightened that this Hebrew word does not in itself mean "endless," and quite likely you have cited references supporting this assertion. Yet you insist on applying an extreme definition of it in the case of these sleepers. Why do you do this? The word "olam" seems rather to signify "lasting" or "enduring," and the length of the duration must be determined by the context, or by other Scriptures. That it comes short of meaning "endless," is readily seen by reference to the Scriptures, and it is instructive to place in parallel columns some texts which describe certain things as "olam," with other texts which tell of the doing away of the same. "OLAM" Exodus 29:9. Here the Aaronic priesthood is "olam." Jeremiah 25:9. Here the seventy years of desolation are "olam." Jeremiah 51:39,57. The "olam" sleepers. "OLAM" ENDED. Hebrews 7:12. Here the Aaronic priesthood is supplanted by the Melchisedec order. Jeremiah 32:15. Here the "olam" desolation is ended. Isaiah 25:7; Ezekiel 37:12-14 with 16:53,55,61-63; Jeremiah 48:47; 49:6,39; Psalm 86:9; Phil. 2:10; Acts 3:24. "Olam" sleepers awake. The "perpetual" sleep of the Babylonian desolators of Palestine has not been interrupted as yet, but it is to be, for "he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations." That is to say, "He will swallow up death in victory." They have slept long; but they shall be waked up in due time, and with the Assyrians, Egyptians and Israelites (Isaiah 19:24,25), with the Moabites, Ammonites and Elamites (Jeremiah 48:47; 49:6,39), with the Samaritans and with the Sodomites (Ezekiel 16:53,55) and all the nations whom God has made, shall come and worship (Psalm 86:9), and with all the families of the earth shall receive the blessing through the promised "Seed," which is the Christ. (Galatians 3:8,16,29.) Yea, at the name of Jesus every individual knee shall bow, whether it be on the earth or under the earth; and surely those under the earth will need to hear his voice and come forth, and will need instruction before they can acknowledge the Lord Jesus, and confess to the glory of God the Father that he is the Lord. Surely, there is nothing in Jeremiah 51:39,57that conflicts with the grand testimony of all God's holy prophets, Jeremiah included, concerning the "Times of Restitution of All Things." The "lords" in Isaiah 26:13,14we understand to mean the various nations and systems that have oppressed Israel. Some of these are dead, and the remainder will die, and as institutions they shall not rise; but this in no way antagonizes the thought that the individuals shall be brought back from death. How else [R3726 : page 56] shall this passage be understood in harmony with the Scriptures above cited? Without doubt, ignorance has alienated and does alienate (as we are told in Ephesians 4:17,18) men from the life of God; but when, under the Kingdom, the knowledge of the Lord shall cover the earth, all will learn to know God, and many, we trust, will gladly obey him, and will no longer be alienated, but will become members of his family. Indeed, the same Apostle assures us that the whole creation is groaning and travailing in pain, waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God, and shall then be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."-- Romans 8:21. We hope, dear sir, that you will look further into the publications recommended, and particularly that you will carefully and prayerfully study the volume entitled, "The Divine Plan of the Ages." It will be a pleasure to lend it to you, if considerations of the small price stand in your way. Yours in the Redeemer's service, E. C. HENNINGES. ====================
Sherlock Holmes	posted 10/24/01 5:39 AM BROTHER HENNINGES GOES ABROAD. ---------- Believing that the general interests of the work hoped to be accomplished through the Editor's visit abroad will be thereby advanced, it has been decided that Brother E. C. Henninges shall go, too. Indeed, he goes before--hoping to assist in making arrangements for the meetings and in gathering information necessary to the determining of the further course of operations in various parts of Europe. He is sure of a cordial welcome, and looks forward with pleasure to meeting the friends of present truth in London on April 5th, and also on the Memorial occasion, April 10th, and to accompanying the Editor, as above.
George Storrs (Moderator)	posted 4/11/02 8:21 PM Adm.
Adm	posted 5/26/02 1:12 PM Adm
Adm (Moderator)	posted 6/29/02 1:01 PM .
David Michael Olsen	posted 10/25/02 7:26 PM . [This message has been edited on 10/27/2002]
Sergio	posted 12/11/02 5:53 PM Are you sure that this Henninges is the same Henninges that married Rose Ball?
Kelly	posted 1/24/03 9:36 AM [This message has been edited on 01/24/2003]
George Storrs (Moderator)	posted 1/25/03 10:53 PM .
George Storrs (Moderator)	posted 1/28/03 6:54 PM To "Sergio" (and any other concerned visitors): No, I am not in a habit of spamming my own discussion site. However, I do appreciate your lettig me know that I failed to delete some of the nearly 100 spam posts. Why some of the spam was shown as coming from the spammer and some was shown as posted by the Moderator's account I don't know. Either someone who previously had access to mod tools did this, or there is a gliche in the system which changed the poster name but failed to delete the post, or ... who knows. At any rate, this is a "19th century history" website constructed for the edification of all persons interested in its' theme. Surely, that can be respected by everyone, and doctrinal battles or related issues can be carried on elsewhere.
Sergio	posted 1/29/03 11:44 AM Thanks for your efforts, moderator, and sorry if I were too suspicious. Do you or anybody know how to obtain old photos of brothers besides the WT publications?
Bruce	posted 2/2/03 10:15 AM Sergio, Ask older Witness friends and check ebay. Be aware that the photos that do show up on ebay often sell for a lot of money. However, with patience one can find older photos. I have an original of a photo of Russell sitting at his desk, as well as a number of others, including a really nice informal group shot of the 1908 Convention at Put-in-Bay. I have a photo of Horace Hastings, who was publisher for Grew, Storrs and Barbour. You can find them.
Sergio	posted 2/7/03 10:01 AM Thanks, Bruce. There are lot of interesting things at ebay. It's a shame I don't have more money, since I have to save for my baby... :-) And it's a shame in Spain there aren't many old items, since the work started slowly in Rutherford's times. Anyway, it would be very interesting if we could associate names such as Stetson, Paton, Jones, etc with faces (also others such as Johnson, Hoskings, etc which are beyond the field of this forum). Do you know of any web site where we can see these portraits? I don't want to impose on any of you, but would it be possible to send some photos via e-mail?
Bruce	posted 2/8/03 10:33 PM Dear Moderator, I'd like to suggest a new discussion folder entitled "Restitution." There is a considerable 19th century history to the doctrine of restored paradise earth. I'd share some of that if you had a proper folder for it. Thanks, Bruce
George Storrs (Moderator)	posted 2/9/03 0:57 AM "Bruce": Per your request, please go the "sister" forum (ZWTTS); http://amazingforums.com/forum/HGREW/forum.html and feel free to start two new TOPICS, one on "Restitution", and one to continue the off-topic posts in the "Conley" thread. Thanks, again.
George Storrs	posted 4/21/03 4:48 PM dmarsh190044MI@comcast.net inquires as follows: I am curious as to the history of the Christian Connection movement and its influences on other movements like that of Jehovah's Witness, Campbellites, and Adventist movement ( William Miller & Seventh Day groups like SD Baptists, SD Adventists ). Could you suggest some books or web sites related to this? Thanks Daniel
Sergio	posted 5/6/03 10:45 AM Hi all! I hope you find this interesting. GEORGE STORRS Dense hair and beard, dark and grey. He shaved his moustache when older, like Russell would do, but with a shorter beard. Serious and elegant expression. ARTHUR P. ADAMS Nearly bald, long dark moustache, broad face, slightly fat jowls, broad back and expression of determination. JOHN H. PATON He was slim, with thin face. Dense and short hair, combed backwards (it looks like red, and later grey), big moustache and long goatee, which along with the rings under his eyes gave him a stern expression. Dressed in black. MENTA STURGEON I once saw a picture of him and he was slim, with blond or grey hair and a big moustache. PAUL SAMUEL LEVI JOHNSON "He was very tall and a big muscular man... and touted a goatee most of his life." (Thanks, Jonalfred.) A receding hairline and dark hair in his youth, and bald and grey hair (and goatee) when older. He seems to be good-looking in his youth, and his face, specially as an old man, seems broad. ALFRED I. RITCHIE Round face, little hair (just temples, back and top of the head), dark hair and goatee, not very tall. JAMES DENNIS WRIGHT I have only a very small picture of him, not very clear. He seems slim, long neck, dense beard and moustache (maybe chestnut). Anybody can add some descriptions? (George Stetson, Jonas Wendell, William I. Mann, Sunderlin, Hirsh, Hoskins...) http://www.geocities.com/tjdefend Spanish site answering false accusations
Sergio	posted 5/7/03 8:57 AM [This message has been edited on 12/03/2003]
GSTORRS	posted 10/18/03 1:20 PM [This message has been edited on 12/03/2003]
GSTORRS	posted 12/2/03 2:55 PM [This message has been edited on 12/03/2003]
chris	posted 1/27/04 5:50 AM Has anyone located George Storrs' gravesite at Woodlawn? I would be interested in seeing a picture. Also, are Storrs' wife (Martha), daughter (Harriet)and son (George F.) buried there?
Sherlock Holmes	posted 3/3/04 4:45 PM Update for post 10/24/2001: This comment is partly incorrect, it was taken from an [unreliable source], who has turned out to be less then truthful in many of his comments. The fact is that the New Covenant Fellowship is alive and well, in fact you can still order Henninges books from them, and they also have a news letter. I want to thank my co-worker friend for bringing this error to my attention. I have stopped using this [source] as a reference. EDITED BY ADM: Please avoid terminology which eventually causes Board to be vandalized. Thank you. [This message has been edited on 03/04/2004]
GSTORRS	posted 3/28/04 6:27 AM [This message has been edited on 05/12/2005]
GStorrs (Moderator)	posted 2/12/05 5:00 PM .
Sergio	posted 5/11/05 8:35 AM I've seen Henry Grew included in this list: http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/subs/texts.html. I wonder if this Restauration movement has anything to do with the group, movement or whatever called "Christian Connexion". Anyway, the Christian Connexion in general rejected the doctrine of the Trinity (see http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/jvhimes/CC-ERK.HTM). So now I wonder when and how they begun to consider this doctrine and to reject it... Anyone can shed some light? http://www.tjdefendidos.org Spanish defense of Jehovah's Witnesses
Sherlock Holmes	posted 5/11/05 4:28 PM I just [edited] wanted to apologise Adm: If for edited year old post above, then: "Thank you." (Please do not respond due to limited space.) [This message has been edited on 05/12/2005]
Regan	posted 9/20/05 6:25 AM . [This message has been edited on 09/20/2005]
John (Moderator)	posted 1/29/06 10:23 PM .
Linda	posted 4/28/06 0:28 AM Thanks so much for this site! I just stumbled onto this site today and will add it to my favorites list! So much good material here and I'm so grateful to those who have worked hard to research and post. May Jehovah bless you.Linda
ADM	posted 3/19/07 3:49 PM .
Bruce	posted 4/17/07 5:55 AM You may post questions on the Barbour research blog and my email is attached to it through the profile section. Any post comes to my email. As to the documentation that Barbour preached in Australia: He says so in his interview with the Rochester, New York, Union and Advertiser. It's cited as a reference in the documentation. When Barbour says he had "lost his faith" he means his Adventual faith, not his christianity. The example of the ship-board conversation shows that he was always open to discussion. There is more to come on the site. I've discovered much more information, and I am in the process of revising what is there, adding the additional information. I'm also writing the section that considers their post-1874 disappointment and the development of new views. It will be a week or so, probably, before the new material is posted. Feel free to post on the blog. There is a comment section.
Visitor	posted 5/16/07 6:19 AM [This message has been edited on 05/20/2007]
Visitor	posted 5/19/07 9:46 AM [This message has been edited on 05/20/2007]
ADM (Moderator)	posted 8/10/07 1:12 PM MOVED FROM TOPICS --- Steve The Scholar posted the following question: For research I am conducting I am investigating the authorship of the 1853 book, "Bible vs. Tradition" officially attributed to Aaron Ellis and Thomas Read as authors. But I can find nothing about either man. Some library bibliographies list Storrs and Rev. Panton Ham as uncredited co-authors of "Bible vs. Tradition." Does this indicate that Ellis and Read were really pen names for Storrs and Ham? If so, why would these men use a pen name when they had already written on the subject of the "soul" under their own names? If not, and Ellis and Read were the actual authors, can someone supply a biographical sketch for either or both men? Thank you. [This message has been edited on 08/18/2007]
Bruce	posted 9/12/07 5:00 AM Ham and Storrs are listed in some library catalogues as authors because they contributed articles to the appendix. Aaron Ellis appears to be the same as the individual of that name who lived in Dedham, Massachusetts. Ellis' original work is lost. I cannot locate it in any library catalogue. The revisions by Thomas Read seem to be extensive. Thomas Read is called "Rev. Thomas Read" in one review of the book. I have no biographical information on Read. Internal evidence indicates Read was a contemporary of Storrs. Ellis seems to be from the previous generation. The only pseudonym used by Storrs of which I am aware is "Anthropos." http://truthhistory.blogspot.com
George (Moderator)	posted 2/12/09 1:54 PM .
ADM (Moderator)	posted 7/19/10 10:11 AM Posted by "richard" on 7/18/2010: I have a picture of CTRussell with a lady called Granny Sargent from England it was taken about 1913 who was she. al trying to get a picture of Gertrude W Seibert for my use only agape richard
Chris	posted 9/3/10 3:54 PM Thanks so much for this informative site. It helps greatly in my understanding of the early development of Russell's thinking.
Storrs	posted 9/30/12 10:05 AM Adm

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