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| Author | Topic: OPEN TUNINGS |
| DARREL SURETT |
posted 4/19/03 6:41 AM
Seems to me like much of Genesis on the guitar requires open tunings, typically "Drop D" (where both e strings are tuned to down to D) especially for Cinema show, Suppers Ready, and More Fool Me. Really gives it that minstrel like... |
| Duke |
posted 4/26/03 10:48 AM
It has been rumoured (and even confirmed by Mike himself in the Songbook DVD) that Mike uses his guitar on Drop D on the 1st string all the time. Although most tabs are fit to be played in standard tuning, I have encouraged tabbers to come up with a standard version, and an original song tuning verison. So far, most tabs are in standard tuning. http://www.geocities.com/bryan2112_2000 |
| Ikhnaton |
posted 4/29/03 2:01 AM
Apparently, one reason Peter Gabriel started making up all his wierd and wonderful stories on stage was to fill in time between songs while Mike Rutherford retuned his guitar from one esoteric tuning to another. I remember reading an interview with Mike many years ago, where he said that he played the Musical Box on a 12 string with the bottom three pairs of strings all tuned to F#. Even though those strings don't actually get played much in the song, the additional harmonics and resonance add a lot to the sound, especially in the closing section. |
| Duke |
posted 5/4/03 7:58 PM
I've never been able to confirm this, but it's also been rumored that they tuned the 12-string pairs differently from each other, how crazy is that? http://www.geocities.com/bryan2112_2000 |
| Todd |
posted 5/21/03 10:48 PM
Does anyone know the different tunings Rutherford used on early Genesis. You mention Musical Box where he used a F# minor tuning on the bottom (highest?) three strings. Does anyone know the exact tuning? |
| Paolo |
posted 6/9/03 1:50 PM
The Cinema Show For right hand, use a pick (plectrum). If you play it with fingers, it won't 'chime' as it should. (BTW you MUST use a 12 string to play this one: if you play it on a 6 string, it just doesn't sound right) THE CINEMA SHOW Mike's 12 string tuning (from lighter to heavier gauge): 1. E (standard tuning) 2. E (standard tuning) 3. B (standard tuning) 4. B (standard tuning) 5. G (the heavy one: standard tuning) 6. E (the light one: 3 half tones lower than standard tuning) 7. D (the heavy one: standard tuning) 8. A (the light one: 5 half tones lower than standard tuning) 9. A (the heavy one: standard tuning) 10. A (the light one: standard tuning) 11. E (the heavy one: standard tuning) 12. E (the light one: standard tuning) INTRO: Mike's 12 string guitar: --17--17--17--17--13--13--13--13--13--13--13--13--10--10--10--10| ----------------------------------------------------------------| ----15--15--15------15--15--15------12--12--12------12--12--12--| -0---------------0---------------0---------------0--------------| ----------------------------------------------------------------| ----------------------------------------------------------------| --12--12--12--12---8---8---8---8---8---8---8---8---5---5---5---5| ----------------------------------------------------------------| ----10--10--10------10--10--10-------7---7---7-------7---7---7--| -0---------------0---------------0---------------0--------------| ----------------------------------------------------------------| ----------------------------------------------------------------| ----------------------------------------------------------------| ---8---8---8---8---8---8---8---8---6---6---6---6---6---6---6---6| -----7---7---7-------5---5---5-------5---5---5-------3---3---3--| -0---------------0---------------0------------------------------| ----------------------------------------------------------------| -------------------------------------------------3--------------| ----------------------------------------------| ---5---5---5---5---6---6---6---6---5---5---5--| -----3---3---3-------3---3---3-------3---3---3| ----------------------------------------------| ----------------------------------------------| -3---------------3---------------3------------| VERSE Mike's 12 string guitar: (also Tony's 12 string and Steve's 6 string electric start here) ------10------10------10--10--10------10------10------10--10--10| ---7-------7-------7---------------8-------8-------8------------| -----9-------9-------9---9---9-------9-------9-------9---9---9--| -0-------0-------0---------------0-------0-------0--------------| ----------------------------------------------------------------| ----------------------------------------------------------------| Home from work, our Juliet.............. Bye. Paolo from Italy |
| PaperLate |
posted 12/31/03 6:32 PM
thanks for that cinema show tab there. for the longest time i was using 2 guitars to play it (not by myself of course). it is certain that rutherford uses ... interesting tunings, but this has thrown me even more problems for some songs. in can-utility theres a section which starts off a Dm chord and has some cool picking in it (around 1:52). now i have heard three seperate guitar parts in this section, including the electric guitar that sort of fuzzes up in the background. ive havent heard of genesis recording more instruments than they can play live (YES does it in some songs where Steve howe is playing the main riff and the solo) so im not sure if it is this, or if the 2 acoustic bits are just rutherford messing around with tunings (and my head btw). if anyone has any thoughts it would be nice to hear them. Oh and also, im not too sure about the F# tuning on musical box. Ive seen several live performances and Mike isnt using a 12 string. Tony is playing the 12 string bits while mike has a 6 string part and Steve mainly just bends these high notes. but i could be wrong Thanks |
| the (grand) wazoo |
posted 1/16/04 8:35 PM
tony play guitar in some parts of TMB and, i guess, some other songs too... |
| Martin |
posted 3/10/04 8:06 PM
Hi, everybody. How about this for a Musical Box start? ----0---0---0---------0-0-----0-0-0-0--------0--------------------- --0---0---0---0-----5-----5---------------------------------------- ---7---7---7---7-----4---4-----2---2------2-0-0/2-----4------4----- -----9---9---9---------6---------4-------2----------4------4------- -9-----------------6---------4----------2------------4------4------ ---------------------------------------0-----------2------0-------- (2x) (4x) (2x) (2x) (3x) Tuning:F#,C#,F#.D,A,E (12 string) Gr. Martin ps.Paolo;some more Cinema please... |
| Paul |
posted 4/7/04 9:41 PM
that's an excellent musical box, any more? |
| K. |
posted 5/17/04 6:25 AM
The above "Musical Box" except is in the wrong tuning, in addition to being the wrong notes and the wrong strings. |
| Martin |
posted 5/17/04 5:47 PM
Hi K. Just take a look at the "Live at Shepperton"(1973)- video.You can see that it's correct. |
| Martin |
posted 5/17/04 5:51 PM
Exept for the fact that it's played in F there . Mike breaking too much strings or warping his Rick-neck I guess...... |
| K. |
posted 5/18/04 1:52 AM
I have the video footage you refer to. But because the tuning you've indicated is wrong, it is not notated correctly (for example, you have an open C# on the 2nd string and there is no C# in the first chord). It *is* played in F# on the video; the spped is likely off on your dub. See my 5/17 post titled "Poor quality Genesis transcriptions." |
| Martin |
posted 5/18/04 8:05 PM
Hi K, You're right about the video-speed.It is in F#. But untill you don't give us(me) an alternative tuning; my other car is a Porsche too...... Looking forward to your book though. Anyone else on the subject? |
| K. |
posted 5/19/04 2:55 AM
Martin, sorry to be so oblique in my messages. I would post the correct notation for the excerpt, but by offering the information, I feel I would be diminishing the value of my book which, to my knowledge, will present Genesis' true guitar techniques in print for the first time (including how to play the often-attempted "Musical Box") The two folios published by Hal Leonard contain numerous errors, in no small part due to the wrong tunings used. Also, if I start posting such information, I would be asked to post even more correct excerpts (if not entire songs), and that would again diminish the value of my book. I actually found this site while searching to see what other "transcriptions" exist for the excerpts used as examples in my book. You may or may not be surprised to know that of the dozens of Genesis tabs that have been posted (on this site and others), only one or two are close to being correct. Don't be discouraged though; transcribing Genesis' guitar parts is not an easy task. The complexity of the guitar parts (particularly Mike's) is often disguised in their simple beauty. Mike's contribution to the overall sound of the band is often underestimated, in my opinion. |
| Martin |
posted 5/19/04 7:34 AM
I have to say I took my version from "Seconds Out"(closing section) There is actually a C# which is not heard in the studio-version.(Maybe Mike likes some change in his everyday-work :-) ) |
| K. |
posted 5/20/04 4:31 AM
Martin, my apologies...When your original post (3/10/04) said "Musical Box start," I took that to mean the start of the song; I didn't know you were referring to the so-called "closing section." I knew it was not correct for the very beginning of the song and did not recognize it as an attempt at the closing section due to the wrong tuning. The transcription is still not right, but closer than when I misunderstood it to be a different part. C-sharp is definitely a member of the first chord on the original version. There is a difference between the first chord voicing on the studio version and the one on "Seconds Out," but the difference is not the inclusion of a C# on the latter. Hope you haven't minded our exchange. |
| Martin |
posted 5/20/04 7:44 AM
No, that's o.k. I already thought you mixed up. Guess you could tune it a bit different and then use another fingering(is that English?)but the result would be (allmost)the same. For example the A and D string could be tuned to B and E. Than you would have F#,C#,F#,E,B,E (not good for my Shergold-neck) This does sound better for an open chord however. ----0---0---0---------0-0-----0-0-0-0--------0--------------------- --0---0---0---0-----5-----5---------------------------------------- ---7---7---7---7-----4---4-----2---2------2-0-0/2-----4------4----- -----7---7---7---------4---------2-------0----------2------2------- -7-----------------4---------2----------0------------2------2------ ---------------------------------------0-----------2------0-------- (2x) (4x) (2x) (2x) (3x) Would be the tab then. I think I'm convinced . |
| Ad Infinitum |
posted 5/21/04 9:30 PM
Hey K - I don't think posting some of Rutherford's alternate turnings woul dhurt sales of yoru book. How about if we all promise to buy it, would you post the tunings. I've read that Rutherford's 12 string was tuned to a F#minor chord. It was my understanding that the EAD strings were tuned to EAD, but the GBE were tuned to A, C# F#. But that would put ALOT of tension on the 12 string neck and high G string. So, please enlighten us, we would all be msot appreciated. Please e-mail me directly at tjbraverman@bryancave.com when you reply. Todd |
| Martin |
posted 5/22/04 2:37 PM
Don't give up guys! There's hope... My last idea didn't work for my Shergold.And the second note isn't a C# indeed. Could be this; F# B F# D A E ----0---0---0---------0---0-----0---0------------------------------ --7---7---0---0-----4---4-----2---2-------------------------------- ---7---7---7---7-----4---4-----2---2------2---2-------4-----4----- -----9---9---9---------6---------2-------2-4-4------4----4------- -9-----------------6---------4----------2---2--------4-----4------ ---------------------------------------0-----------2----0-------- (2x) (4x) (2x) (2x) (3x Now don't you dare tell me i'm wrong again, mister K! ;-)) |
| Martin |
posted 5/22/04 2:42 PM
OOPS! 4rth position on the D-string in the 3rd chord ofcourse....... |
| PGTR |
posted 5/26/04 7:18 PM
Hi everybody,I think the tuning of music box is: Mike gtr 1-F#4 2-F#4 3-F#3 4-E3 5-B4 6-E4. Hacket and Banks normal tunning. I'll send the intro with tab. |
| PGTR |
posted 5/26/04 7:32 PM
Hi, everybody. This is the intro of Music Box Mike gtr (F# F# F# E B E ) --0---0---0---0---0--- -------etc --0---0---0---0---0----------- --9---9---10--9---7----------- --11-11---12--11--9---------- --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Banks gtr --6---6---7---6---4--- -------etc --7---7---7---7---7----------- --6---6---7---6---4----------- -------------------------------- --------------------------------- --------------------------------- Hacket gtr --6----------------4----------etc --7----------------7----------- --6----------------4----------- -------------------------------- --------------------------------- --------------------------------- |
| PaperLate |
posted 5/31/04 9:07 PM
from what ive seen, rutherford is using the EADF#F#F# tuning in many a performances, I have figured out the whole song for this tuning and it sounds right. his opening part goes like this : i have confirmed this way with several video clips, tho i think his tuning is different on the seconds out tour. opening section for rutherford (EADF#F#F# tuning): ------------------------ -7---7-8-7-5----5-7-8-7- -0---0-0-0-0----0-0-0-0- -8---8-9-8-6----6-8-9-8- ------------------------ ------------------------ Play me my song, here it comes again... hope this helps |
| PGTR |
posted 6/1/04 1:54 PM
HI everybody and PaperLate, if you check the video concert of genesis and stop when mike play you can count the fret and you see that the tununig is: F# F# F# E B E.I think so... |
| Martin |
posted 6/1/04 8:54 PM
Paperlate, what's your opinion on the tuning used at the Seconds Out-"closing section" (do you have the video?) Martin |
| PaperLate |
posted 6/2/04 3:43 AM
Martin, Yes I have the Seconds Out video footage, I havent figured out the tuning for it as of yet. Its probably something very similar to the original. I know some of the genesis cover bands use EADF#C#F#, but I've tried using that tuning and it doesnt do it for me, tho i havent spent alot of time using it. Oh Rutherford, what will you do to puzzle me next? :P |
| PGTR |
posted 6/2/04 3:07 PM
Hi everebody! I check again in the video and I really thing if you count the frets you realize that the tune is F# F# F# E B E. And sounds really good. |
| PGTR |
posted 6/2/04 3:12 PM
Hi!. This is when peter begin to sing ( Play me old king cole...) Mike gtr (F# F# F# E B E ) --------------- ----------0---- 4X --------0------ -----10--------- --12------------ ---------------- --------------- ----------0---- 4X --------0------ -----9--------- --11------------ ---------------- |
| PaperLate |
posted 6/2/04 4:30 PM
PGTR, One thing I have noticed about rutherfords playing is that he favours a picking format where he is sort of jumping back and forth over strings, hard to explain, looks like this tho: ------------------ -----------x------ -----x------------ --------x--------- --x--------------- ------------------ I didnt put in the frets, but this is how he does alot of his picking (cinema show, Can Utility, the closing section of dancing with the moonlight night). He does this much more than picking straight up the strings like in your example. Check again, look a his right hand, you will see he favours difficulty with the right hand over difficulty with the left hand. usually with rutherford if you are jumping around with the pick it is more likely to be correct (im not saying this is the Rutherford formula, just something to keep in mind) :) |
| PGTR |
posted 6/2/04 7:02 PM
Hi Paperlate, You tottaly right about the pickin in the other songs, is like you said, kind of formula, but in the music box I can't see perfecly in the video the right hand but I listen the track of cd very slow and this notes like I write was right, try to listen. Soon we solve the mistery. |
| Racounteur |
posted 5/16/07 5:01 PM
So what happened with the forementioned project of a book with accurate transcriptions by K.? Did it finally see the light? |
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