Author	Topic:   Peta2
Kim	posted 10/1/02 0:20 AM     The peta2 boards are incredibly infantile and their ignorance is encyclopedic. Do you think any of them are older than 16?
Varmit	posted 10/1/02 2:25 AM     There might be a few that are older than 16, but I would bet its only a handful. Makes you wonder what the older members are doing? Maybe on the phone asking for donations?
Kim	posted 10/1/02 3:44 PM     It's also amazing to me that they post all this stuff about cruelty free products ($$$$$$$$$$)when most of it has been tested on animals in the past, and so there is no current need to. It's like saying "fat-free" when the product never contained "fat" in the first place. You can bet the plastic containers these things come in have animal material in them.
Laura	posted 10/1/02 6:51 PM     In response to you saying that people under 16 are infantile and apparently don't know anything. Do you think that just because people are minors we can't have knowledge of what is going on in the world? I think they can decide what is fact and what isn't. Age doesn't necessarily determine you ability to gain knowledge and understanding. Please excuse them for getting involved in somthing they feel passionate about at younger age.
Equinely Yours	posted 10/1/02 7:07 PM     Laura ~ Give it 20 years and then tell us how much knowledge and understanding you have gained. Reading PeTA propaganda will not replace real life experiences. Experience is where true knowledge comes from.
O. T.	posted 10/1/02 7:37 PM     I agree with Eq. Yours. High school athletes get better in college. College athletes that go on to the pros get better than at the college level. It's a thing called experience. Knowledge is no different. Nothing wrong with being 16. I loved every minute of my 16th year. All 16 year olds have much to learn, they may not realize it.
Kim	posted 10/1/02 7:48 PM     "Age doesn't necessarily determine you ability to gain knowledge and understanding. " AT peta2, it does. and at that website, its a big disability, rather than ability
O. T.	posted 10/1/02 8:49 PM     I should add that I'm aware that not everybody is athletic or brainy, so in that case, maybe experience is of no value. My main point is, if you're 16 and listening to what I've seen from PeTA, and falling for it, you very badly need to gain some real life experience.
Varmit	posted 10/2/02 1:27 AM     I thought I knew everything when I was 16, by the time I was 30 I was much smarter and wiser about life, work, etc. And you keep gaining as the years go by.
DavidCarroll	posted 10/2/02 1:56 AM       Laura said, >>"Age doesn't necessarily determine you ability to gain knowledge and understanding. Please excuse them for getting involved in somthing they feel passionate about at younger age. "<< There is no need to excuse yourself for passion, but to decide the truth before you even know what it is, is pure folly. If you rely solely on peta for your information you have abandoned your own search for truth and knowledge in favor of a BELIEF because it makes you comfortable and accomodates your personal aesthetic, and perhaps because it gives you a reason to feel smugly superior to non-believers, just like any religion. If you really want to learn, you will have to investigate and consider other viewpoints and peta is not going to provide you with these because they want to be sure to keep you within the fold. Why do you think they won't allow a discussion board on their website?
Laura Kruming	posted 10/2/02 5:06 AM     When did i say im NOT getting real life experience? When did i say i ONLY get my info from peta? Don't assume things, that can get you in trouble. And the reason they don't want debates on the peta2 boards is because that's a place to support fellow AR activists and a place to talk about the issues together. Its not a place for you anti compassion people. You shouldn't go there. You can talk about it with people who WANT to. I admit that peta has some weird advertising gimmics that people can be easily sucked into but i am able to see past it. I don't always believe everything i hear. Im intelligent , and don't discriminate against me because im a minor.
Laura	posted 10/2/02 5:08 AM     I also just wanted to say that i DON'T think i know everything .
vulpes	posted 10/2/02 5:29 AM     Peta lies about traps and trapping,among other things-real life experience is what lead me to know this. Its not just peta either,its all the other AR groups and even a bunch of animal welfare groups do it too.
Kim	posted 10/2/02 3:20 PM     "Its not a place for you anti compassion people." And what does that make you? Pro compassion? How are we *anti-compassion?" You make an assumption and then demand that we don't make assumptions about you and your movement.... A true hypocrite....geeesh!!
Gene	posted 10/3/02 0:46 AM     Laura, I don't think teens are dumb at all (except really dumb ones who grow into dumb adults and marry other dumb adults and have dumb kids - but that's another subject!) Anyway, you guys have a lot going for you. What worries me, though, is that so many kids are growing up in sanitised, sterile suburbs with little contact with the tough reality of nature and the facts of life. Take it from all of us: Walt Disney is an entertainer - not a documentary film maker. Anyway, that comment is half joke and half real. I don't know you at all and don't pretend to. In my opinion, you've got to be pretty cool to venture over to a forum where you're outnumbered. That said, invite some of your brighter friends to
Gene	posted 10/3/02 1:55 AM     Laura, sorry to keep focusing on you but you're the only young interesting person around. Anyway, I just want to say that, only maturity will teach you that cool/hip/rad/phat people have always been with us, whether they're vegan or not. (Actually, I can't think of many important artistic vegans. But it's the dawn of a new era.) It's amazing! Gradually, you'll learn how cool the 50's really were. Then, you'll discover the 30's. jeesh....... it goes on forever, and ever, and........ The human race
Gene	posted 10/3/02 1:59 AM     Why is the form of my posts so screwed up?????????????????????????????????????
Laura	posted 10/3/02 2:20 AM     Thanks a lot for your encouraging post. Unfortunatley it wasn't encouraging enough and i don't feel at all happy to be posting here so im stopping. thanks again.
Gene	posted 10/3/02 2:32 AM     That's okay, Laura. You take care of yourself and thanks for posting. You're gonna find that most everyone is telling their own truth and doing the best they can. Others are scam artists who only want to use you for their own gain. Just don't judge anyone too harshly till you really kno
Grrrl	posted 10/3/02 2:37 AM     Just because someone is an animal rights activist does not mean that they were introduced to animal rights by Peta and Peta propaganda. And not everyone that is a member of Peta believes everything that they say. Blind faith in any organization is ridiculously unintelligent. Could you give me some examples of what people on Peta2 say that is so ignorant? That may help to get a conversation started that consists of more than name calling. Thanks.
Gene	posted 10/3/02 3:04 AM     Thanks for the intellegent post, Grrrrl, (Did I type too many RRRR's?) Ag people usually give everything they've got to the animals in their care, and it breaks their hearts when accused of not caring for and brutalizing their animals. I think it's mostly PeTA's distorted reports of torture and bloodlust that rattles everyone. PeTA people are often blood/gore freaks who get turned on by carnage. Bottom line is, PeTA gets their power by convincing urban people that the world is a horrible nightmare of bung hooks and gore while grinning, savage ag people conduct the carnage with blood lustily dripping down their chins, and setting themselves up as the solution. I won't argue with you about the harshness of slaughter, but it's been a fact of life since we crawled from the swamps; it's a reflection of nature. Radical change won't happen overnight. Bottom line is, people hate PeTA's flat-out lies, horrendous disrespect for their fellow humans, and brainwashing of well-intentioned people who have no grasp of where thei
O. T.	posted 10/3/02 3:19 AM     Grrrl, for starters how about " God, I hate rodeos," or "I hate humans," or "I love to see the rider get his guts stomped out." Then there's the one about "torturing the animals to make them buck." Those may not be the exact words, but all of those statements were made. The admin over there didn't want you to see what we had to say about the real deal, so we were all kicked out. Doesn't that suggest anything? PeTA goes about it all wrong . They act like they're the only ones who love animals. They would be better off to work towards the real problems and leave fabricated problems alone.They would gain the support of rodeo folks if they only stuck to the facts and actually worked in a constructive way. PeTA sites have worn out the quotes by the two old vets that are telling how rough rodeo animals are treated. Anyone ever wonder about that vet that worked in a slaughter house for 30 years? I think I'd rather have a vet clinic if that was me. How about you? I remember a debate on TV, probably before you were born, and one guy was screaming about the cruelty at rodeos. When he was asked how many animals he had seen injured at rodeos, he screamed"I've never been to a G D rodeo,and I wouldn't be caught dead at one.That really caused a long delay, because of all the laughter. Even the host lost it. This guy was the AR "expert on the panel. Truth is, thats the problem with ARs. They just don't cut it. Discuss this with us and you be the judge.
O. T.	posted 10/3/02 3:46 AM     Another example is the girl whose parents are missionaries who is quoting Bible verses in support of animals. It was suggested to her by one of the regulars over there to read a little further in the Bible. Read that post for yourself. We don't have to make this stuff up. That's just another case of "selective reading and quoting." Anything except for facts and ALL the facts doesn't help a thing.
vulpes	posted 10/3/02 5:11 AM     Some peta2 people were saying that foot traps cut an animals foot all up and were saying some other goofy things to do with this subject.Clearly people at large are very ignorant of traps and trapping issues,as evidenced by what I hear all the time as feedback for my saying to them that I trap. The AR groups at large say all kinds of crap about traps,its no wonder people think what they do. The open minded ones discuss it with me and I set them straight on the issue.Peta2 people are a great deal close minded,not all there,but many. I am still waiting for Dan at petasucks to reply to the replys to his statement on foot traps that I queried him about.
Kelli	posted 10/4/02 1:18 AM     I am a member of Peta2, but I am an opened minded person. Animal rights is just something I believe in, and I don't judge any of you for eating meat, so think beyond yourselves and respect other's beliefs.
tricoy	posted 10/4/02 1:26 AM     Kelli, you are not a member of PETA. There are only 3 members. You are a donator(one who gives them money). Look at the tax returns, under the heading member contributions=$0.00.
Gene	posted 10/4/02 4:00 AM     Kelli, nice message. Thing is, we respect you more than you realize. Our problem is that PETA tells horrible, horrible lies about us and tells open minded people like you that we are monsters without compassion or intellegent, completely insensitive to the suffering of others. PETA wants you to believe we are monsters so you will go running to them. It's not right and extremely unfair. In spite of what some here might might write just to get your goat, we respect your right to be vegetarian or vegan. But we don't respect PETA's lies about us. There are many good animal welfare organizations honestly dedicated to caring for animals. Please check them out. They may not be made up of glamorous movie stars and rock stars, but they're probably doing much more for animals
vulpes	posted 10/4/02 8:15 AM     The Humane Society of the US(HSUS)-don't trust them,they are Peta in a suit and tie- they have the same agendas ,but are more low key on how they deal with he issues(they don't do the shenanigans Peta does)- they ARE an animals rights org,NOT animal welfare.They use the "humane society" part to dupe people of money,who think they are helping shelter animals- HSUS does not run ANY shelters. HSUS is the largest AR group in the world.
Kelli	posted 10/4/02 9:59 PM     Well, I'm glad you guys respect my opinions. I was just wondering, what lies does peta tell? I'm not saying I'm going to neccesarily believe you or peta, but I just want some input. I don't know why they would lie about something, but you're right, they could be. Could you just tell me some things that you think they lie about?
Gene	posted 10/4/02 10:38 PM     Kelli, you're opening a flood gate. Better take cover before the tidal wave hits! I'll let others answer for themselves. Overall, the biggest lie they tell is that everyday people are so cruel and insensitive they would tolerate the suffering PeTA claims takes place. I don't personally know a lot about slaughterhouses, but I know the stuff PeTA reports would never be tolerated by any but a very tiny, corrupt few. Just about everything they say about how ranch and farm animals are treated are lies. Virtually everything they say about rodeos are lies: the lives and personalities of the bucking bulls and broncs, virtually everything regarding flank, or bucking, straps, the injuries inflicted by roping. Most of what they claim about the care and treatment these animals recieve is colplete nonsense. I can go on and on but others on this board want their chance to speak, I'm sure. I realize it all sounds overwhelming, like no one could possibly lie and exaggerate like we claim PeTA does. It amazes us, too. How can they get away with it? It's outrageous.
SP Bulls	posted 10/4/02 11:16 PM     Kelli, from what I have seen and read almost everything peta has to say is a lie. The reason they lie is pretty simple once you look a little closer at peta. They haul in millions of dollars each year from donations. They are without a doubt one of the best companies in the world. Millions of dollars, tax free, from little to no actual work. They play off of peoples emotions and lack of personal experience to get "members". If I saw a dog that was in pain from being treated badly I would gladly give up some money to put a stop to it. The problem is most of what peta is "against" doesn't actually happen. They take a worst case scenerio, something that may only happen once and tell people that it goes on everyday and that they are trying to stop it. Most people have never been in a slaughterhouse, or a dairy farm, or behind the scenes at a rodeo. They believe what peta tells them just because they have never seen anything different. Why do you think they wanted to get rid of all the rodeo people on peta2? Why do you think they are so opposed to having any kind of debate there? They are afraid that if people start to question what they are saying, the money will quit rolling in. That is the reason they have for lying. Money. I'm not against anybody who wants to make sure animals are treated well. I'm not against anyone who doesn't want to eat meat. I am against people who want to lie about what I do just to put money in thier pockets.
Equinely Yours	posted 10/4/02 11:25 PM     Great answer, SPBulls. And glad to see ya here.
Gene	posted 10/4/02 11:28 PM     Vulpes brought up an excellent point about the Humane Society of the US. I've heard the same. Who are good animal welfare organizations? I've heard of the American Humane Society all my life and assume they're legit.
O. T.	posted 10/5/02 0:05 AM     Kelli, it's nice to see a young person that actually wants to hear our point of view for herself and one who doesn't just refer to us as "mindless" and the other names we've been called. Feel free to ask questions here, and I suggest you browse bucktherodeo.com, peta sites. and others and come back here with a list of questions. I assure you, I have never met in person any individual on this board, and doubt that the others know each other personally either. You can do some research and come back asking questions, and every person on here can give you a straight answer.I only suggest this because the fabricated stories are far too many to cover them all. I should add that I'm meaning as far as rodeo is concerned. We all appreciate your love of animals and wish you the best. PS If they kick you off the peta 2 board for having a civil discussion with us, stick around here. We'll treat you right.
Equinely Yours	posted 10/5/02 1:12 AM     HSUS and American Humane Society are two different entities. For other options try Animal Welfare Council, or even your local shelter. You'll notice in the "old" days, shelters were called humane societies. Then HSUS came along and gave them a bad name. Now thay all call themselves animal shelters. http://www.animalwelfarecouncil.org
O. T.	posted 10/5/02 1:53 AM     Truthfullness always makes things easier in the end. Animal Welfare Council can back up their claims. Just because somebody doesn't like something because it doesn't appeal to them, doesn't make it right to lie about it. How would you like to see peta try to back up their claims? The one that would be fun to watch would be to watch them strap some device on a bulls testicles to make him buck. If they ever do that, I hope I'm there to watch.
Gene	posted 10/5/02 4:57 PM     Kelli, It's weird being able to read your profile on PeTA2 while you don't know anything about us. Ask anything you want. Meanwhile, I want to mention that Moulin Rouge is one of my favorite recent movies, too. I love it because it's ravishing cinema! The colors, costumes, sets, and camera work - not to mention the music - are outrageous! I like sober, quiet movies, too, but when I'm in the mood for something over-the-top, Moulin Rouge can't be beat.
Varmit	posted 10/5/02 6:07 PM     Kellie, I do not want to write a book so I will only give one example at this time of the PeTA lies: <<) Calves are only used in one rodeo before they are returned to the ranch or destroyed because of injuries.>> We have roped calves that were started at rodeos in January with rodeos almost every weekend and still be roping the same calves the first of May. A good example of this lie for proof is to tape the NFR in December. They use 3 sets of calves. Different breed mixes most of the time. With 10 performances, 2 of the sets of calves will be roped 3 different times. The other set will be roped 4 times. They are rotated every 3 performances, so all you have to do is watch the calves and most will have some kind of marking or look different from each other so you can check back on your video and see that same calf had been roped in an earlier performance. Most of the time the commentators will tell you who had the calf the time before so it makes it easy to go back and match up the calf. Where at regular rodeos like PeTA is speaking of calves are only roped 2 times. So the NFR rodeo proves that they are wrong. Currently I have 3 calves in my practice pen that have been roped since the first of June, 3 times a week. 2 more from the first of Aug.
Gene	posted 10/5/02 8:22 PM     I've been facinated with the religions of the world for most of my life, so, my favorite PeTA2 topic is "Religion." I notice that, aside from Christianity, its posters are most interested in Buddhism, Wiccan, and Satanism. There's talk of Jainism and Hinduism, too. There hasn't been much mention of Islam or Judaism, which is curious. Why is that? Experience has taught me that people are usually best off when they proscribe to the clearly established, older religions, which have been around for centuries and weathered every storm flung at it. My personal attitude is that all real religions are just different cultural languages saying the same thing (but appreciate that many will disagree with that). Buddhism is one of the great religions of the world and has expressed the spititual quests of millions, even billions of people throughout the last two thousand. I have to agree with Awinn, though, that people don't know much about Wiccan beliefs. Like she said, it's a relatively modern belief system from an oral tradition that might be vulnerable to bizarre interpretations, or at least ungrounded ones. Why are Wiccan beliefs suddenly so popular? I've learned more about Satanism on PeTA2 than I knew before because it never interested me. It's fascinating learning about the clear distinctions among Satanism, Devil Worship, Santaria, and Wiccan beliefs. I'm intrigued by the 11 points of Satanism recently posted: at least two points preach that if someone disagrees with you or bugs you, give them one more chance, then destroy them. There's no mention of empathy or putting yourself in someone else's shoes, no mention of understanding others. This might help explain why Satanism is so poular with PeTAphiles.
Tabby676	posted 10/5/02 9:30 PM       In answer to why Wiccanism is so popular and gaining in numbers, I would have to venture the theory that this is for a few reasons. 1 (and paramount) due to the fact that there are so many views of what it is to be wiccan, in fact many books tell you to choose your own pantheon and moral concepts etc. it makes this religion the easiest for those who feel that other more strictly adherent and closed minded religions have left them behind spiritually to find a place. 2 availability of information, though wiccanism was on the rise already before the advent of the commercially available internet it was no where near as prevalent as it is now with the fast communication of ideas that occurs here. 3 spirituality that is self influenced and there for generally more applicable, in this day and age it may be difficult for most to find a common ground with books such as the Bible, Torah, Q'ran, Tao Te Ching etc. with wiccanism you can in the process of choosing your own path find spirituality more available and that it better conforms to your way of life. 4 rebellion, in the case of teens and young adults who are in the time period of attempting to define themselves this particular religion would have a perfect nitch in that it allows self expression in the most powerful form with the added bonus of really cheesing off your more conservative parents. Just in case you are wondering I am an atheist, and like many atheists I am fascinated by all religions and study them avidly, (especially when I was pubesant but even still now). :) And I now apologize for any and all spelling errors…
O. T.	posted 10/5/02 9:57 PM     From what I've learned, no matter what religion you are, if God is not number one in your life, you need to make that adjustment ASAP. My brother's wife didn't grow up in any kind of church, but now has joined a very well known religion and I have yet to hear her mention one word about God. It's only about the Church and the Bishop and their Elders, etc.and she's very active in the "Church." Those guys don't cut it. They ain't got the power to save.They are only supposed to teach how it's done. They usually all have clean-cut families and would croak if one of their kids chose to marry an "outsider". Man, they sure do have some fancy Churches though. You know how it goes, "Send money", maybe you can buy your way in. Who they kidding? While I admit to being rough around the edges and dang sure not a candidate for "Deacon of the month", I'm sure I'm as well off as those who make senseless noise in the name of religion.
Gene	posted 10/5/02 11:00 PM     Tabby, thanks for the EXCELLENT explaination of why Wiccanism is more popular today. I noticed you didn't capitalize it, should it be? I never understood atheism, though I thought I was one for a brief time when I was in my teens. I've been a ravid, snarling, fundamentalist visual artist most of my life and never understood how a creative person could be an athiest; yet plenty are. Good ones, too! How do you define athiesm? My dictionary defines it as the theory that God does not exist. But, what does that mean? The Christian concept? Which Christian concept, the Renaissance old man with a white beard sitting on a cloud, watching our every move? The Islamic concept? Buddhism is more about the concept of a life force than an individual god, whereas Hinduism has hundreds, even thousands of gods, millions of them dancing on a pin head. Before the Judeo-Christian concept of a one, monotheistic God, people had a god for every activity. Do you believe in a transcendental reality, or life force, or is, simply put, what you see is what you get? Actually, what you see is what you get is okay with me - it just all comes down to how much you see. I'm all for big rather than small, myself Have you read Jean Paul Sartre and the existentialists? Oh well, this laptop is becomming my gawd; it's getting all my attention and shaping my life. That, and the "Sopranos" dvds. I gotta go outside and chase my panthiestic pursuits. Bark beetles and drought have killed about six pinon pine trees in my yard and I have to dig them up.......
Tabby676	posted 10/5/02 11:26 PM       I take atheism at its most basic concept the roots of the word itself... a without theism (self explanatory), I do believe as suggested by Einstein’s theory that all matter and energy are interrelated and interchangeable and that there fore all things are by extrapolation related and interconnected, which is at least a little spiritual, but I do not believe in reincarnation, afterlife, or any sentient being more powerful than myself that cares to in any way influence my or anyone on our rocks lives. In terms of the capitalization issue I generally do not capitalize the names of organized religions any more than I would capitalize the name of a club or a sports team, which is not meant in any way as hostile I simply do not see the need. I have read many of the works of Jean Paul Satre as well as Nitzsche, Dostoevsky, Kierkegaard, Heidegger, and Jasapers... in terms of existentialism I covered most of the bases while in high school and college. I am not as much of avid readers as I used to be since I am a web designer/master by trade and like to let my eyes rest at least some of the day lest they should one day fail me. ;)
Tabby676	posted 10/5/02 11:27 PM       should read "not as much of an avid reader" sorry...
Gene	posted 10/6/02 1:23 AM     I think Einstein's interconnectedness theory is the raw source of religious thought. Different religions, for me, are poetic responses to whatever it is that is at the heart of the interrelation between all things. Einstein said, "Space is love." I'll buy into that. I'm not much for reincarnation or afterlife either. For me, it's water pouring back into the sea. But, have you been with people when they die, or attended funerals and seen loved one's bodies? Without the spirit of life, their bodies aint much at all. I stopped reading years ago because I'm a photographer who endures tremendous eye strain. These forums are no help.
Equinely Yours	posted 10/6/02 1:34 AM     Gene, altho you are still vertical (;-)), your messages seem to be completing now. Hope you got your problem fixed. http://www.animalwelfarecouncil.org
Gene	posted 10/6/02 5:18 AM     I try building compassion for Tragically Hip, but as her posts continue on PeTA2, I think she's Tragically Sick. What is wrong with that little monster? She's truly scary. She makes me think of the kids of the Khmer Rouge who did all the random killing of unarmed, politically incorrect victims. There's a point where teens must accept responsibility for being monsters.
Gene	posted 10/6/02 2:34 PM     Tabby, does Tolkein's "Lord of the Rings" series have any connections with Wiccan thought? I realize Tolkien is credited with creating the Hobbit and Rings mythology, but many associate his stories with Druids, or at least, they taste like similar flavors. Or is it just that both are old, English mythologies?
Gene	posted 10/6/02 2:50 PM     Matthew, while I realize you're enjoying your newfound heroic staus in Petaland for "setting us mindless people straight," I really wish you'd return to the discussion to tell us all about your life as a missionary in China. This fascinates me. Please set us straight about how you got into the country and managed your mission under the watch of the communist regime. Considering that missionaries haven't been allowed inside China since Mao came to power, I can't wait to learn about how you pulled it off. You must be an even greater hero than we realized.
Gene	posted 10/6/02 2:58 PM     Oh yes, lest we forget, Matthew, you tell us that you are a teacher. I'm curious about what subjects and age groups you teach. And, where did you get your teaching credentials, the Dan Quayle Instistute of Spelling? "Smokeing?" We can all make errors, but over-and-over? Did you eat a potatoe for lunch?
Gene	posted 10/6/02 3:03 PM     Oh my gawd, I misspelled Institute! Well, I grew up in Indiana, just like Dan.

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