Author	Topic:   lead off or jumping off he bag
Matty	posted 2/4/08 9:34 PM     I think one rule that needs to go in the one about jumping off the bag before the ball is hit. I don't really see the point of this rule? If there is no stealing or leading off then why call the player out if they jump off when a batter misses a pitch? If they miss a pitch does it really matter if the base runner jumps off to early from the bag?
KDCSL Convenor	posted 2/22/08 5:42 PM     Honestly, offhand I can't think of the reason why that rule is like it is. It is used in just about every 3-pitch league / tournament though, so one advantage is that people who are playing in more than one league don't get confused! Personally, if I was coaching the other team and some young player jumped off on a missed swing, I would give them the benefit of a warning (but only one!) Maybe it would help them keep their mind in the game.
Matt	posted 7/16/08 10:50 PM     Was just flipping through some of the posts and noticed this... in leagues with people pitching to their own team and non-professional officials/umps, this rule is a perfect way to ensure that no one ever tries to 'take off early' to get an advantage (head start to stay out of a force play, whatever) - it accomplishes that perfectly, without any room for argument or complaint (anyone trying to do that will inevitably get caught by their batter missing the ball and them having jumped off the base)- virtually every slow pitch league you play in will use that rule for that reason. The downside, of course, is when someone very much not intending to 'lead off' gets caught accidently going, but most leagues have decided it is a tradeoff that is worth it. One somewhat related aside - when a team agrees to let you have a pinch runner from home plate, it is a really good idea to not have the pinch runner take off before the batter hits the ball - it is really great that our league can be good enough sports to allow us to have that VERY unusual rule, but a lead-off from home can make folks sour about that it a hurry. :)
Matty	posted 7/20/08 3:28 AM     ya that makes sense, thanks Matt and Peter for making that rule clear. Cheers
Cris	posted 7/21/08 8:09 PM     Speaking of pinch running, I received a comment from one team that if a girl had a pinch runner, they shouldn't bunt; that it wasn't good sportsmanship. Can someone clarify this for me or provide me with some thoughts? He admitted that it wasn't a "rule", per se, but that it was widely accepted throughout the league - but in my time with the leagues this is the first I've heard of it.
Matt	posted 7/22/08 3:27 AM     On the topic of bunting with a pinch runner - as I've certainly seen some people get very upset about this over the relatively few years that we've had the 'pinch runner from home if agreed to by the defensive coach' rule; I'll try to add in to the discussion the concerns I've heard and seen raised about this practice - 1) it is very common for the batter, without even meaning to, to find themselves in the way of the catcher trying to field a bunt (I tried to explain this to someone tonight who couldn't understand what I was trying to describe, but I have seen it happen several times when I've been umping, and heard about it a few times when my wife was catching); 2) like it or not, where it has the potential to really upset people is in a close, competitive game, when a player is at the plate who the defense might have a chance to get out and is replaced running by a very fast runner who adds the advantages of a track-crouch start and not having to recover from a swing as they come away from the batter's box... if you add to that the additional threats of bunting, it is very likely that there will be many situations (places where you can bunt the ball) where it is absolutely impossible to get the runner out. Some people will look at that and say 'so what'? Others will think it is stretching sportsmanship a bit to ask that of a defense in a close game. For us, we've always been very clear with all of our players that when you find yourself in a situation where you really need some help getting from home to first and it allows you to be part of the game, rejoice that the good sports in our league allow more people to take part in the game through using this rule, understand that some people get very upset when people bunt with a fast pinch runner (or even any pinch running) in a close game, and don't bunt. In summary - I'm sure that there is a reason that I've never seen any other league allow this rule - it is a great testament to our league if we can make it work, and allow more people to take part because of that. I guess the helpful thing is to be sensitive to situations where it might even seem to the other team that you are getting a significant advantage by using a rule intended to allow more people to play. Take care all, and God bless.
KDCSL Convenor	posted 7/23/08 3:51 AM     There is no rule prohibiting bunting with a pinch runner. It's an awkward situation though, especially because of the batter interfering with the catcher. We had a play in a game last week where the catcher went for a bunt and ran *right* into the batter, who was just standing in their batters box because the pinch runner was running for them. So, logically that should be an out (interference)... But it's a judgement call (was it really the catcher's play?)... we have volunteer umps... and it's an odd situation anyway because the rules say the batter should get to first on their own before taking the runner (but the other coach *may agree* to allow the runner from home.) So - If a coach feels that this situation would cause undue confusion or an unfair advantage, they may offer to allow the pinch runner from home with the condition that the batter swings away.
JT-BatterseaBethel	posted 7/24/08 11:10 AM     I see no issue here - if it needs to be a rule, then make it a rule. If it's not in the rules then coaches and players alike should suck it up. I don't want to play with a bunch of babies. What is it worth to talk about the 'sportsmanship' when currently the only course of action is to whine and complain in a game - which basically boils down to implying the other team is being 'cheap' or 'dirty'. If something causes this much debate, then MAKE A RULE... then we won't have to wonder. I also love how bunting with a pinch runner is frowned upon as 'cheap', but an outfielder throwing to 1B to get a 'slower' or 'less powerful' girl out is not 'cheap'. They're basically the opposite of each other... one allows the batting team use speed, the other allows the fielding team to use the batter's limited power against them.
President KDCSL	posted 7/24/08 5:44 PM     We do have a rule: A. The batter may be replaced for health/injury reasons after reaching first base. If they continue on to second they should run for themselves, unless the injury occurred on the run. B. With the agreement of both coaches, pinch running from home is fine provided the player has obvious health concerns and/or challenges. A pinch runner from home should not be used as a competitive advantage. It's against both the spirit and word of the rule.
JT-BatterseaBethel	posted 7/25/08 10:36 AM     "with the agreement of both coaches" you have a rule. It sounds like the coaches have been unclear about what is agreeable. So let's discuss it before the games - ground rules are pretty easy to agree on.

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