Author	Topic:   How To Break It To Others...
Lightworker	posted 6/16/07 2:48 AM     OK, so I've known for some time that mom has NPD. And my brother is coming into the acceptance that there is something very wrong with her, but from loyalty for decades is refusing to belive me (the one narso mom always belittled as having not a clue- due to my having clued right in..lol..). So I've sent him some links and he's at least not laughing me right out of the building. He's even sounded humbled and thoughtful, which isn't like him.. NPD mom is actually at my house right now, imposing for my daughter's graduation...taking up the center of attention as is her usual MO..and so on... My brother just rang the phone to tell her he'd just learned of a dear old friend who's mother called to say he died today. He wanted to talk to mom for comfort...I asked him if he was sure this was a good idea. Upon handing the phone to her she listened and said, "oh, that's too bad honey," and, kid you not, within one sentence later she was laughing and telling him all about the wonderful prime rib dinner she'd just had and how nice the weather was up here...made a few snide comments about some money this recently deceased friend of my brother owed her from several decades ago...inflating the actual amount owed by 1000%. She then told him to call back later because she didn't have time to chat just then. After all, someone else's death and her son's grief isn't about her and her nice vacation she's been having imposing on my home without invitation.. Is there any advice to give siblings that are so warped by the NPD that they cannot come to grips with it? Remember: I'm the one who the NPD painted out many years ago as "delerious", "disturbed" and "not to be trusted".. to block my exposing of her disease.. So it's almost impossible for me to get through to him. My sister is even worse. She is the inverted narso to mom and is so very very warped that a team of psychiatrists may never be able to set her right. Any tips on dealing with this?
Deanna_10	posted 6/16/07 2:53 PM     I see where you are coming from, but surely, whether you call it NPD or not and whether you think of it a "something wrong with" or not, you all have SOME basic idea of the type of person your mother is, and what kind of reactions to expect from her? However off kilter you mother's reaction was, surely it was, to a large degree, the reaction your brother was expecting, used to, and even LOOKING FOR when he called her at all? D10
Lightworker	posted 6/16/07 6:33 PM     Nah. My brother was looking for the same thing all three of us kids have been looking for since we were born: a mother who cares about us. To realize and accept that a mother figure, the most innate need of all people according to nearly every psychologist, is missing, absent and utterly not there is an acceptance that doesn't readily come easily. I made the same mistake for decades before I found out what NPD was and that for sure mom has it in spades.. I kept confiding in her, expecting understanding, empathy and emotional support. Instead, what I kept getting was criticism, disgust and cold distancing in response to my needs. I kept getting hurt and angry. I complained to anyone who would listen that my mother was heartless, cruel etc. etc. etc. Just like my brother does now. You see, being a child of an NPD makes you strange, weird, extra needy because of the deficit in early life. So even normally empathetic people tire of us. So we are usually loners or have few close friends that we can lean on. So time and again we turn to the one person we feel certainly would lend us support...only to be disappointed, become even further needy and so on.. This is the cycle. When I realized mom is NPD the cycle was broken and healing began and continues. It is a crushing blow to realize that one was an emotional orphan. That now, in midlife I am damaged, undesireable to be around by even the mose empathetic of folk and so even orphaned from society as a source for support. All those reactions to her have to be weeded out, looked at, healed and reduced or eradicated in order to become a functioning member of society and gain the support we never had. My brother hasn't taken the first step of acknowledging the root of the problems he faces in his life: mom's NPD. So he's caught in the cycle. The paramount feature of the cycle is: Mom cannot possibly be apathic...SHE'S MOM! after all... I was just wondering if anyone had some method to suggest to crack that denial. For me it was easy. I was the one who rebelled and knew all along there were serious issues with her. And hence the reason she bore down on me the hardest and did everything in her power to convince everyone not to take me seriously, belittling everything I did/do to this day and ridiculing my very name; making it synonymous with "foolish, stupid and wrong". So my brother faces, upon taking me seriously, as being included in the highly uncoveted "stupid, foolish and wrong" category he saw me suffer endless pain in. And hence the old NPD keeps her victims, her supply, in line and reflecting her behavior as nothing but the best. It's insidious and it works. I want to know how to unwork it. My brother's friend just died of a heart attack. He, overweight from eating to fill the void, diabetic and stressed from emotional fallout and bad decisions made from the damage done to him is at mega high risk for heart failure as well. So, hence my immediate concern.
Deanna_10	posted 6/19/07 0:12 AM     Surely the other root of your brother's problem lies in his inability to learn from you mother's lifelong behavior and adapt his expectations to it? Changing that is the best he can do for himself whatever he accepts or denies about your mother. Right or wrong, you cannot change her, and neither can he, you can only change yourselves. He is also far more likely to accept that than to accept you "cracking his denial" of what is, after all, only your subjective diagnosis of your mother. The behavior you describe is, without question, inappropriate and abusive, but whether it is the result of NPD or not depends entirely on who your mother is inside, something you have no way to know (particularly when you consider her behaviors). D10
Paper_Tiger	posted 6/19/07 1:23 AM     Lightworker - I am also having difficulty understanding why after a lifetime of observation, the parties would continue to seek 'motherly' behavior where none exists... although as a PDer, I have to admit having spent most of my adult romantic life looking for the 'unconditional love of a mother' that I did not receive in childhood.. an impossible thing for a romantic partner to provide.. but that's not really the same.. I don't know how you would "break it to others" if they are fundamentally incapable of seeing.. does this make sense, or do I have that wrong?
Lightworker	posted 6/19/07 6:15 PM     Well I think time and the links I gave my brother will lead him to silent knowledge about the whole affair. At least this is what I'm hoping for. One's relationship with one's mother is a core issue with nearly every person walking the face of the earth. It's important not to trivialize her effect on you, whoever she is and whoever you are. I think Freud had this right. And yet once we see this relationship for what it really was, then we can move beyond to full liberation and adulthood. You wouldn't believe the numbers of people who don't acheive this because they trivialize the importance of this original human bond, or lack of it in my case..
Deanna_10	posted 6/20/07 0:10 AM     Absolutely NO WAY would I attempt to trivialise your mother's affect on you. What I don't understand is why you can't deal with that in a more assertive way, by shifting your focus from the idea of diagnosing her internal motivation (in a way that even if you were qualified to do you would be considered to be too personally involved to be able to do accuarately or effectively) to simply acknowledging that your needs were not met by your mother, and probably never will be, and just getting good and wholesomely angry about that. Because you have a RIGHT to be angry about it, and the damage it has done to you and your siblings. However, we aren't born with an imprinted expectation of a caring, nurturing "good enough" mother, far from it. To an extent, like the duckling, we "pattern" on whatever kind of mother we get, and we learn to expect whatever experience teaches us will be forthcoming. That is why, for instance, abused children will tend to grow up to seek out abusive partners, because somewhere, deep inside, they have become conditioned to see abuse as "parenting" because it is the only parenting they ever got, and then to go on and unconsciously interpret that as "lurve", with predictably disasterous results. From your point of view, it really doesn't matter whether your mother meets the criteria for NPD or not, all that matters is that your needs were not met, and that YOU have woken up to the fact that you deserve, and SHOULD expect FAR better from you relationships in future. Common sense suggests that avoiding your mother in future would be a wise course, while learning how to mend all the distorted expectations this deprivation has created in you would be an healthy and sensible one. But you must choose your own road too meet your needs, as must your brother in his turn. "NPD" (or ANY PD) just means that a person was damaged and developed pathological defenses that took a specific direction, in the case of NPD that means a person has developed self regard to the exclusion of all other forms of regard. It doesn't mean they are bad, or dishonest, or that they will ever harm anyone (though somtimes they do). It just means that their damaged defences consist in giving so much regard to themselves that they have never learned how to give any to anybody else. As you describe it, you mother's behavior is definately obnoxious and abusive but it's not necessarily NPD, and identifying it as such is of no use to anyone but your mother, and only of use to her if she is ever ready to face herself and try to change and the chances are, she never will. But you can recover from her, and find ways to compensate for everything you were deprived of, and I wish you the very best in that. D10
Lightworker	posted 6/20/07 5:01 PM     I appreciate your comments 10. I have gotten angry with mom. In fact, I spent the first 25-30 years of my life angry with her behavior. Remember, I was the rebellious one who knew there was something fundamentally wrong with her. When I finally discovered she is classic NPD, instead of angry outbursts, I cried for the lost years of not knowing exactly why she angered me so much, and all the lost energy spent fretting over her BS. Yes, she has NPD and from the looks of every one of the many websites I've studied on the symptoms, syndromes and manifestations of NPD, she is a classic case. Her having been diagnosed by someone with a piece of paper saying they've mastered the philisophical art of psychology is not a prerequisite for me to accept the obvious. Moving on.. I have put much space between us. Due to how much anger she elicited in me, over 20 years ago I put 900 miles between us and have ignored her nearly constant pleas to have me, her punching bag, move back "home" to be "close" to mom. I have kids who don't see their paternal grandparents at all. My maternal parents are all they have. So I'm careful to only allow sporadic contact with her and their vestigial maternal grandfather. I never call her, she always calls me, sometimes twice a week and only to talk about how much money she has, how popular she is etc. ashing out any concerns in my life. For instance, if she finds out I'm having financial difficulties, the entire time on the phone will be spent with her telling me how many times she's been to Europe in the last decade, or some new expensive thing she just bought. If she finds I'm having trouble with finding an ear to listen, I get to hear all about how popular she is and how the phone won't stop ringing. If I have a successful endeavor, I am immediately cautioned by her not to get to optimistic about "such-and-such" because in her experience, it is sure to be a failure just around the bend. And so on...yeah, she hasn't been formally diagnosed...lol.. The problem is the anger my brother will feel upon realizing what she has, the NPD thing. On the one hand he's suffering as a direct result of her NPD, on the other hand I'm not sure his blood pressure can handle the tidal waves of anger he'll experience (that he and my sister repressed all these years lest they also be labelled the "angry" "maladjusted" child that NPD mom struggled daily to convince people I was) once the dam breaks and his denial is no longer intact. I told him in a recent email to take it slow, to digest the reality of mom's NPD slowly over many months. Hopefully that will help him.
Deanna_10	posted 6/20/07 10:24 PM     What I am having trouble understanding, and I hope you will try and explain this to me, is what differenhce it makes to label your mother's behavior as NPD rather than just accepting it for the bad behavior it is? Also, I wonder if you realise that most of the information commonly available on websites about NPD is wildly inaccurate and misleading? AS far as I can tell most of it is based on the fanciful rantings of an Israeli accountant of some sort, and doesn't bear the slightest resemblence to what NPD actually IS in medical terms. Of course you may have found other, far more valid sites, and if so I would really appreciate it if you would post some of the links? D10
Lightworker	posted 6/20/07 10:53 PM     Well for that matter experts themselves don't even agree on NPD totally. But as much as they do, my mom has it in spades. Why it's important to recognized it as NPD? Simple: once a syndrome is recognized you no longer attach such emotion to the behavior. It's wasteful to live one's life strung out in anger or rage over something like NPD. If I found out she had Turret's syndrome then it would explain all the foul language...it's sort of like that. I can now say, "she's an ill person, this is why she does it." instead of "she's a bad person and this is why she does it." It takes the "hate" out of the equation. I'm too old to hate.
Deanna_10	posted 6/20/07 11:05 PM     So, do I have this right? You feel that by giving your mom a label you seperate her and her behaviors in your mind, and make them less personal to you? I don't suppose it matters how accurate the label is then? But just to mark your card, unless you have found some VERY obscure sites I have never, seen you won't get much of an idea of what ANY of the experts think of NPD from websites. Sadly NPD on the web is buried under an avalanche of worthless pseudopsychology with no relation to any experts at all. D10
Lightworker	posted 6/21/07 0:37 AM     I don't think it's totally worthless. Any new phenomenon (NPD first "recoginzed" in the 1980s) is open to investigation and in investigation mistakes and triumphs will come of it. You have a right, of course, to anything you want to feel; hate included. I myself just see no benefit from it. It wasn't always that way, oh my no. When I was younger every third word from my mouth was, "I hate my mom". I say, go ahead and feel your anger. But I caution against cultivating a lifelong romance with it.
Gattaca	posted 6/21/07 5:19 AM     Someone with NPD is not "ill" as PDs are not considered mental illnesses.
Deanna_10	posted 6/21/07 2:44 PM     Lightworker I feel thay you are trying to claim that if I do not give the misinformation so widely available on internet websites about NPD priority over valid, accredited medical and academic sources there is something wrong with me? I hope you can reassure me that this feeling is entirely mistaken? Also, I do no remember mentioning feeling any anger, so why do you attribute it to me? As a matter of fact, NPD was first referred to by Kohut in about 1970, but the concept of pathological Narcissism goes back to the 19th century. Gattaca, you are, of course, quite right, a qualified professional would never usually suggest that a person with a PD was "ill". D10
Gattaca	posted 6/21/07 5:34 PM     Here is my advice, RE: Your brother. "NPD" is irrelevant. Your mother has never been formerly diagnosed? So here is the gist of what you say to your brother. "Mom is a bitch. You and i both know this through experience. The greatest predictor of future behavior is past behavior" (Thank you Dr Phil!) "So it would be wise to stop expecting Mom to suddenly change and become who you wish she was, and to expect her to suddenly start acting how you wish she'd act." ----------------------------------------- “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.” ~ Albert Einstein
Paper_Tiger	posted 6/21/07 7:03 PM     The biggest hurdle in my own healing was acknowledging that I would never get what I needed to have emotionally as a child, and that the opportunity was lost forever. You can't go back and undo that. I will die not having had the unconditional love of my parents. Although I had my suspicions about what might be wrong with my mother and father, it was irrelevant to my own healing process. Labelling it was unnecessary. I needed to acknowledge that I did not get what I needed, get really angry about it, then become resigned to the fact, and then finally move on and put effort into growing. Before I moved into the anger mode, I actually tried to seek validation of my feelings from my mother. My mother would never admit doing anything wrong. The anger came easy after that. Anger and hate are two different things. Anger is a normal part of the cycle of acceptance. Anger is also a lonely place. I remember contacting my brother, and discussing our parents, and then planning to go visit other family members together. I knew it would piss my mother off if she knew that me and my brother were making efforts to see others but not her. It felt like I had a partner in conspiring against my mother. That helped me feel like I was doing something about my anger. A little vengeance. I can assure you that much worse things crossed my mind in those days. I guess I'm trying to suggest, Lightworker, that sending the links to your brother might not be about "breaking it to others", but more about getting validation.. validation which you can't get from your mom.. but you can get if your brother "sees the light" - your light. Just food for thought. Pure opinion. PS - I agree with D10. Regardless of your motivations for sharing links to information about NPD, there isn't much good information on the net. Be careful about propogating misinformation. The real minds on NPD don't operate websites.
Lightworker	posted 6/21/07 11:20 PM     Totally, totally spot on. It is about my getting validation. It was quite the mind f**k to be told by the three other members of my family (dad, brother and sis) that I was imagining her abusive behavior and that I was the problem.. Oh and my was she delighted with their "conclusions" based on fearing her wrath if they didn't...lol ***** "Someone with NPD is not "ill" as PDs are not considered mental illnesses" ****** Well that depends on what you consider "ill". I consider someone who cannot perceive others as viable beings deserving of the same respect they want for themselves as ill. I see someone who compulsively lies about the past, even five minutes ago, to cover their tracks as ill. I see someone who can turn on their own children ruthlessly, cunningly and without remorse as ill. These are all symptoms of NPD.
Deanna_10	posted 6/22/07 2:20 AM     Actually Lightworker, those aren't symptoms of NPD at all, here are the formal criteria for NPD as stated in the DSM IV TR: (1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) (2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love (3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) (4) requires excessive admiration (5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations (6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends (7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others (8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her (9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes Those are the criteria on which NPD is diagnosed. You can't, in all fairness, adjust them to fit your own needs. Apart from which, the things you describe are obnosious and abusive, but they have nothing to do with illness. Healing is about facing the reality of a trauma and coping with it, for whatever it really was. Making it feel better by giving it an inappropriate label is about as useful as making it feel better by having a few shots of vodka. At the end of the day you are still left with a reality you haven't dealt with yet. D10
Gattaca	posted 6/22/07 5:37 AM     Lightworker wrote: "Well that depends on what you consider "ill". I consider someone who cannot perceive others as viable beings deserving of the same respect they want for themselves as ill. I see someone who compulsively lies about the past, even five minutes ago, to cover their tracks as ill. I see someone who can turn on their own children ruthlessly, cunningly and without remorse as ill. These are all symptoms of NPD." ________________________________________ Thats not the way reality works. Personally disregarding the official definition of illness and creating a new one to suit your own desires doesnt make your made-up definition valid. As Deanna said, these are not symptoms of NPD. The fact of the matter is, Personality Disorders are not classified as mental illnesses.
Paper_Tiger	posted 6/22/07 2:55 PM     While I have to agree with Gat and D10 on the technical issues here, I certainly appreciate what happens when our pain and frustration drive us to choose words we feel will have sufficient torque behind them to express how we feel.. regardless of the textbooks. We just need to be careful for the same reasons discussed about the NPD sites on the web: inaccuracies and misinformation are dangerous things to propogate. Moving right along - Validation is an interesting thing. It doesn't need to come from outside of us. Here is why: Abuse is a very individual thing. Different people respond different ways to different things. Two people can respond completely differently to identical parenting or other conditions. If what happened to an individual during their life caused soul damage, who is qualified to judge whether that damage was "an appropriate response"? Nobody is. The existence of the sould damage is a fact. That somebody else might have ended up more well adjusted under worse circumstances is irrelevant. By reaching down inside ourselves, we can find our own facts. We know we are wounded and need to heal. We don't need anyone else to confirm that. And when we have this validation we can proceed to get really f***ing pissed off about it. And then the anger starts to fade and we become sad and grieve and then we move on and try to figure out ways to grow from there. I think one of the most important things said in this thread so far is "Healing is about facing the reality of a trauma and coping with it, for whatever it really was."
Lightworker	posted 6/22/07 3:19 PM     Refusing to see the obvious has its benefits for some. Here, let me break down what I've written in this forum about mom, and some things I haven't yet and apply it to what is "accepted" as the current criteria for NPD (1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) "made a few snide comments about some money this recently deceased friend of my brother owed her from several decades ago...inflating the actual amount owed by 1000%. She then told him to call back later because she didn't have time to chat just then"~ from the first post here. She was too important to be bothered with my brother's grief. She exaggerated the amount of charity she lent his dead friend to appear more generous than she actually isn't. (2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love. "I never call her, she always calls me, sometimes twice a week and only to talk about how much money she has, how popular she is etc."~ From my 4th post. (3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) "For instance, my mom. She has a degree in nutrition from the 1950s. For that time, she learned her stuff and learned it well...because (in her mind) her professors were her semi-equal...mom insists that her knowledge is superior"~ from Any Other Somatic Narcissists.. thread my 4th post (4) requires excessive admiration "she always calls me, sometimes twice a week and only to talk about how much money she has, how popular she is etc"~This thread my 4th post (5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations. ~My brother's nickname for mom was "The MC". It stood for "Master Cylinder" and was the name of the bad guy on the old cartoon "Felix the Cat" I believe. The master cylinder for those who don't know is the main break hydraulic reservoir that controls the four smaller cylinders near each break on each wheel of a car. When you press down on it, the other four respond instantly. (Funny how he instinctive knew even as a child. Maybe this will be easier than I thought) (6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends~ Mom depried (stole) from all three of her children tens of thousands of dollars because my grandfather didn't notarize an amendment he made to his Will. She laughs regularly about how she's going to spend every last dime of it on herself globetrotting while my sister takes meager vacation time to deal with her migraines, my broter is on the verge of a heart attack from working so hard to support his family and I am disabled raising two kids as a single mom and celebrating having enough money for milk each week. I finally got a milk goat I hobble out each day to milk to provide enough now that my son is a teenager! (7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others~ I think #6 covers this one. (8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her. "If I have a successful endeavor, I am immediately cautioned by her not to get to optimistic about "such-and-such" because in her experience, it is sure to be a failure just around the bend."~also my 4th post here (9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.~ the #6 response fits, also this: "My brother just rang the phone to tell her he'd just learned of a dear old friend who's mother called to say he died today. He wanted to talk to mom for comfort...I asked him if he was sure this was a good idea. Upon handing the phone to her she listened and said, "oh, that's too bad honey," and, kid you not, within one sentence later she was laughing and telling him all about the wonderful prime rib dinner she'd just had and how nice the weather was up here...made a few snide comments about some money this recently deceased friend of my brother owed her from several decades ago...inflating the actual amount owed by 1000%. She then told him to call back later because she didn't have time to chat just then."~ from my first post here. If this isn't haughty arrogance, nothing is. ********* Do we have a diagnosis yet? lol Like I said, she's a classic NPD.
Lightworker	posted 6/22/07 3:30 PM     Thanks for the insights PT. Nothing but good can be gotten from getting to the bottom of things
bonnder	posted 6/30/07 6:46 PM
bonnder	posted 6/30/07 6:55 PM     Oops. New here and probably just passing by. Can't find a way to delete my empty post above. Lightworker, I got what you were saying the first time around - because your examples are so familiar to me from my life and because I have been recently doing an intense survey of what is on the web re. NPD. The post you made directly above will be necessary only for those who have not had the experiences you describe. The value to me of what you have said, and what others on the Web have said, is not the label of NPD. It is the constellation of behaviors that go together, regardless of what you call that constellation of behaviors. The fact that some have labeled it NPD is irrelevant for me. What has been relevant, and extremely helpful, is that total strangers have described a group of behaviors that I thought (until recently) I was the only one who had experienced them from a significant other. Discovering that others have put together a list that nearly duplicates my list is valuable to me, as I am sure it is to others. Thanks for taking the time to describe your experiences(in this thread and others).
Lightworker	posted 7/1/07 4:34 AM     No problemo. I agree, it isn't the label but the associated duplicate behaviors that are important. When a mother brushes off a son who's friend just died that day, to talk about how much fun she's having that day...there's something wrong...deadly wrong.. And as it turns out it is a commonality with what people currently call NPD today.
Lightworker	posted 7/10/07 6:19 PM     More about the night that my brother called in grief for a friend's death.. Just to illustrate how the narcissist thinks and behaves in ways that actually cause harm to others. An illustration.... A young couple were sitting near us at the nice restaurant we had dinner at for my daughter's graduation. It was obvious that their relationship was new and they were both shy and nervous..he trying to woo her with the nice dinner and she dressed really nice to attract him in return. They were really cute kids, a real treat to see such innocence. I notice (NPD) mom kept glancing in the gal's direction until finally she blurted to me and my daughter (as if she was in a sorority and we were her sisters-in-crime) loud enough for half the restaurant to hear as well, "Can you believe the dress on that girl! Her boobs are practically hanging out of her dress!" (by no means true at all). The girl went instantly red in the face, the man glared over at mom. From that point on the girl looked CRUSHED, her confindence and self-esteem shattered at such a critical point in their relationship. The man spent the rest of the time trying to salvage the night with awkward conversation about trivial stuff. My daughter and I were white with anger and I quickly made a loud comment about how nice the restaurant looked to change the subject lest that loose mouth keep going on about that poor girl's hairstyle or choice of shoes... When I shot mom (grandma) a glance of utter astonishment, she, instead of feeling shameful, merely smiled a victorious smile at the girl's obvious embarassment: The rest of the night she cooed about how lovely the piano music was and that the style the musician was playing seemed to be "meant just for her". She was still on that NPD high when my brother called about his friend dying. We'd just gotten back. It's why he was brushed off so quickly in his time of grief. Grief is a bummer and it was "her" night to glow, in spite of the fact that it was about my daughter's graduation....and so on. Mom is so obnoxious, making rude and insulting comments as a matter of blind routine (especially to dad) that the kids and I had to take turns in shifts (we preplanned this). My daughter, bless her heart, would come right home from school and I would "need to take a nap then". I would wake up and then she would "need to rest". We leap-frogged like this, inserting my son when the two of us were at our collective limit. Much like when you have a newborn baby in the house....that draining and demanding.. The day after they left I had a bad relapse of my chronic disease and am only now feeling like I'm approaching mediocre health. At one point I felt that they ("she" since dad is merely vestigial) had so drained me that I might not be able to make it to our summer vacation this year; I was having difficulty walking and concentrating; I had a stroke (bleeder) in my right retina and was partially blind one afternoon. As for the young couple at the restaurant, I can only hope they recovered. But at such a critical stage in their relationship it's iffy at best. If the young woman was having issues with self-esteem to begin with, her confidence to "open herself" to this young man might be forever shattered. He, in turn, may come to hate and despise older women like my mother and lose his own confidence because of her rebuff (not due to anything about him, but rather her own shyness and embarassment). Will this scenario happen? It wouldn't surprise me. And this is why NPD is not just a disorder that affects those who have it, but the entire world as well. Tony was right, we need it to be taken seriously and a treatment offered ASAP.
Deanna_10	posted 7/10/07 11:18 PM     Don't you think that what you are doing here is more showing how your mother thinks and behaves in ways that harm others? D10
Lightworker	posted 7/12/07 3:38 AM     No, her behavior is almost identical to a neighbor I have who suffers from NPD as well as another woman I know and two men. Their actions and peculiar quirks of behavior follow a distinct pattern of how they react to their environment and how they relate to people in general. The similarities are too consistent to just narrow it down to Mom. NPD is a disorder that follows the set of grandiose, arrogant, dismissive, self-absorbed behaviors that are commonly cited. In fact someone listed them here on this website and I addressed them one by one as applies to mom. I'm sensing that you are having trouble coming to grips with the fact that NPD is an actual specific disorder of the personality. To me, it gives hope to recognize the standard pattern of symptoms. To me, this suggests that a standard pattern of treatment may some day be found..
Deanna_10	posted 7/12/07 10:44 PM     I do not have the slightest difficulty "coming to grips with the fact that NPD is an actual specific disorder of the personality", but I honestly do not think you are qualified to diagnose it, in a large part because you really do not have a clue what it actually is. How could you have, when you are so busy trying to subjectively identify the disorder with your mother to meet your own needs regardless of the facts? Could I also ask for a little respect for the dead? Tony Brown was certainly very concerned with the healing of NPD, but he was also equally concerned with raising awareness about NPD as far away from the kind of uninformed, derogatory, subjective identification you are determined upon as possible. D10
Lightworker	posted 7/13/07 0:00 AM     nah, it's not about respect for the dead or me misdiagnosing something. For years I pondered on what madness had my mother in its grips. I read publication after publication, took psychology courses in college, went to self-help groups, seminars...the works. Nothing I came across fit like a glove quite like NPD does. She has NPD. Whether or not someone with a specific piece of paper says so is irrelevant as far as my healing is concerned. For me, it's enough to know that according to the criteria you yourself set forth in this very thread, she fits like a clinical case. I really don't know why you're so invested in my having made an error in assigning NPD to what she does. It fits. That may bother you because of the things she has done and your wish to not want to identify with the fact that NPD presents itself in this way. It could be that your own disorder (if you've been diagnosed with NPD) compells you to resist any description of it as harmful to others. Indeed, my understanding of it tells me that one of the main symptoms is rigorous denial on behalf of the NPD person of any wrongdoing or culpability in how others are affected by their behavior. Bluntness is my nature. And if it offends you to the point of having me banned here, it wouldn't be the first time an NPD person launched an ousting campaign to shut me down...and it most likely won't be the last. That's another symptom: banishment or denigration of any information (like what my mom does) that sheds unfavorable light on the disease. Coming from the outside, I have to say that to persevere in examining it in spite of all (and rigorous) opposition to do so is the only solution. What is hidden cannot be exposed, what cannot be exposed cannot be examined. What cannot be examined cannot be cured. I would think that a cure would be the one thing Tony wanted. In fact I read these very words in his petition. And so, I persevere in spite of any flack not to do so..
Deanna_10	posted 7/13/07 0:12 AM     No, I just have a problem with you identifying an entire disorder with your mother...that's preposterous...and, I admit, some serious discomfort with you attributing views to poor dead Tony that were pretty much the opposite to the views he actually held. D10
Gattaca	posted 7/15/07 6:37 AM     "No, I just have a problem with you identifying an entire disorder with your mother...that's preposterous...and, I admit, some serious discomfort with you attributing views to poor dead Tony that were pretty much the opposite to the views he actually held. D10"-------------------------------------------- Same here. Respect for the dead?? i personally have A HUGE problem with you hiding behind my dead friend, putting words in his mouth that he never would have uttered himself. Bear in mind that you arent just talking about some anonymous faceless person, you are talking about the best friend i ever had. Have the deciency to leave Tony out of this. Your behavior is disgusting.
Paper_Tiger	posted 7/15/07 7:35 PM     Lightworker - I've never seen anyone ever get banned here. I would like to return to something said earlier: "Nothing but good can be gotten from getting to the bottom of things." Somehow I think this thread has gotten off-track, and I would like to review - 1) "How to break it to others" turned out to be "how can I get validation from others". Although getting validation from others is nice, we can validate our own feelings in order to take the next step in healing. 2) In seeking validation from others, we are tempted to use the internet as a quick way to give someone else a concept of the disorder, and get them onboard with our thinking. This turns out to be a quick way to spread mis-information because what's on the web is dominated by a non-professional. 3) Although I do not doubt Lightworker's powers of observation, diagnoses are best left to professionals. I certainly recognize that Lightworker will probably never get her mother to go to a therapist, but that situation doesn't by default invalidate her feelings about the situation or any soul damage inflicted. 4) IMO, labeling the condition is definitely NOT required to recognize our own soul damage and to begin to work on healing ourselves - which means regardless of our powers of observations, as friends or family, we simply don't need to label, diagnose, or even get a professional assessment of the NPDer's condition. I think our tendency to label and arm-chair diagnose are a byproduct of a desire for external validation - which again, is normal, and also unnecessary. 5) I also felt a twinge when I saw Tony's name invoked on this board. I don't think I am any more qualified to speak on behalf of Tony - and yet I was around when Tony first started the idea of the petition.. among other things.. so I thought to myself: WWTD? - what would Tony do/say? First, he would probably point out that the current professional thought on the disorder is a COMBINATION of Nature/Nurture. A genetic predisposition triggered by life experiences. But that's another thread.. Beyond that - the primary purpose of the petition was because he was more concerned about people like Lightworker's MOTHER than he was about the friends and family. This may be a matter of semantics because if MOM got fixed, as a byproduct, friends and family would not be so impacted. Tony, IMO, accurately identified that BPD was getting more focus and resources from the psychology community than NPD. The petition was to be a tool to help get focus and resources shifted from BPD to NPD.
Deanna_10	posted 7/15/07 8:45 PM     Personally I am just very glad Gat popped in and said what she did. I didn't know Tony well enough to put it that strongly, but I felt it that strongly. I mean it very hard lines dying that young, when you have everything to live for, without total strangers popping up and re-writing everything you were, believed in, and thought, to suit themselves. Besides, what kind of validation is Lightworker REALLY looking for here? She doesn't even have a clue what NPD is. All she knows it that she has found people all over the net saying the things feels about her mother, about people with NPD, so she has feels that if she says her mother has NPD then "those people" on the internet will be validating her feelings about her mother... What she isn't seeing is that all "those people" are saying about NPD is not validation, or real information at all, it is just ignorance and bigotry in it's worse form, and that will never really validate ANYTHING. I think that is why she is so defensive. D10
bonnder	posted 7/16/07 0:10 AM     (Quote) She (Lightworker) doesn't even have a clue what NPD is. (Unquote) - -------------------- - As I've described elsewhere, I'm a newbie to this subject and a newbie to this forum. I don't know enough yet to have an agenda to protect. In this context, I am baffled at the response to Lightworker in this thread. Would you like it better if she said, "mom's behavior seems to fit into the Cluster B profile"? - Does anyone here disagree with the accuracy of the definition and checklists that I present below? I am limiting myself to the "professional" listing of criteria for a Cluster B designation, of which NPD is a part. Of all of the examples that Lightworker has presented about her mother's behaviors, which ones absolutely cannot be connected to one or more of the "criteria" presented below (including the D.S.W guy's 95-point checklist and the criteria for a BPD, APD, and HPD designation)? My non-professional answer is "none". (For space reasons, I am not reproducing the professional criteria for BPD, APD, or HPD. They are easy enough to find on the web.) ---------- ---------- - From elsewhere on the web: - "NPD is one of a "family" of personality disorders (formerly known as "Cluster B"). Other members: Borderline PD, Antisocial PD and Histrionic PD. NPD is often diagnosed with other mental health disorders ("co-morbidity") ..." ---------- - From a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, with a Doctor of Social Work designation (D.S.W - is this an actual academic degree??): - A ninety-five-item checklist of "Cluster B" characteristics - http://members.aol.com/dswgriff/chardisorder.html ---------- - From D_10, earlier in this thread: (modified by bonnder) - (1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., "This whole family revolves around me. Attention will be paid to me. I speak and will be obeyed or there will be hell to pay. I can make people feel badly just because I want to") (2) left out intentionally; (3) left out intentionally; (4) requires excessive admiration (see #1 above); (5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations (see #1 above) (6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends (see #1 above) (7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others (8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her; (9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes (see #1 above). ---------- ---------- - Note, for example, that Lightworker's mother's comments in the restaurant regarding boobs hanging out could very easily come from D_10's Point 8 - "is often envious of others" (envious of the sweet young thing just starting out in a relationship - a position mother will never again occupy). It is possible she decreased her level of discomfort by increasing the level of discomfort of the young girl. That behavior seems to fit into the criteria of NPD. ---------- - It was stated above that it is not necessary to diagnose to begin our own healing (loose translation). Perhaps. But it IS necessary and valuable to diagnose, even if it is only a non-professional diagnosis. I have a number of people in my life who fit the Cluster B profile in specific, and the NPD profile in general. I am not a professional who can diagnose professionally. But I am a consumer of these folk's emotional output and I certainly can (and need to) diagnose in order to better manage the toxic output I receive. If I don't know what is hitting me, I am more likely to respond emotionally and ratchet up the heat in the exchange. If I can predict what is going to hit me, and what proper response will more likely diffuse rather than ramp up the exchange, I can improve the quality of my life in the present moment and in future moments. Being able to predict is a valuable ability and is impossible to do if I have not first accurately diagnosed the situation. Knowing that if I see Response A to Stimulus A I will likely also see Response B to Stimlus B and Response C to Stimulus C is valuable in being able to diffuse difficult situations or avoid them in the first place. And it is impossible to recognize the pattern and short-circuit it if I have not first accurately diagnosed the situation. - Lightworker says that, out of all the research she did through the years, she was not able to identify, understand, and predict her mother's behaviors until she saw the criteria for Cluster B in general and the criteria for NPD in specific (this applies to me also). She did not wantonly apply some criteria that did not fit just because she read it in a book. She kept looking until she found the criteria that fit the behavior. Tell me - what more do the "professionals" do than that in order to make a professional diagnosis - find the criteria that fits the behavior?
Deanna_10	posted 7/16/07 9:40 AM     I would prefer it if both of you quit practicing medicine without a licence. DSM criteria are meant to apply to objectively observed, personality traits, not individual episodes described out of context, with subjective bias, by third parties. On those terms almost anybody will fit the criteria for NPD regularly, along with the criteria for most other things too. Because most DSM criteria are normal behaviors and traits, for diagnosis the must occur in excessive and/or pathological form. It would be far healthier for both of you to say what YOU FEEL about the individual, instead of avoiding that by declaring the they are an "N". I do not believe there is a "predictive" element to the DSM? In fact, even a complex and highly sophisticated psych profile will only go as far as to suggest probabilities. I think you will find that Lightworker, like anybody else, learned to "identify and predict" her mother's behaviors from her life experience of them...and the only person who can say whether she has actually come to "understand" them correctly is her mother. As a matter of fact, her rigid insistance on interpreting her mothers behaviors in terms of a fatally flawed perception of NPD is certain to lead to misunderstanding of them. D10
Gattaca	posted 7/16/07 12:58 AM     In other words, her BPD is showing.
Paper_Tiger	posted 7/16/07 5:36 PM     >>>>>But it IS necessary and valuable to diagnose, even if it is only a non-professional diagnosis.<<<<<< I strongly disagree with that statement. Would you want a quack performing brain surgery on you after listening to the recommendation of a lay-person who thinks you might have a tumor because they read somewhere about some similar symptoms? That's an extreme example, but it makes a point: I don't want you to label me, pigeon hole me, and start 'predicting' my behavior in a prejudicial fashion because you've made some homegrown assessment. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and there is no 'NPD conspiracy' behind a behavior that looks like it fits a DSM criteria. >>>>>But I am a consumer of these folk's emotional output and I certainly can (and need to) diagnose in order to better manage the toxic output I receive. If I don't know what is hitting me, I am more likely to respond emotionally and ratchet up the heat in the exchange. If I can predict what is going to hit me, and what proper response will more likely diffuse rather than ramp up the exchange.....<<<<<< I don't understand why anyone needs to consume somebody else's emotional output. They are the owner of their feelings, and you are the owner of your own feelings. If a person violates or disrespects your boundaries, you will know and should respond accordingly. It doesn't matter if the violator is NPD, ASPD, BPD, or just an asshole. Their motivations are mute. The result is the same regardless. And an appropriate response, IMO, would be one that protects your boundaries and does not escalate the situation regardless of their motives - so "understanding" or "predicting" their motives and behavior is also unnecessary. This need to predict a behavior almost looks like the first step in manipulating their behavior. Should we control others? Can we control others? What is our motivation for trying to control others? Because we think they are in control of our feelings?
bonnder	posted 7/17/07 3:24 AM     Quote It would be far healthier for both of you to say what YOU FEEL about the individual, instead of avoiding that by declaring that they are an "N". Unquote - No. And I have not declared anyone an N. What I have declared (and Lightworker too, although I don't want to put words in her mouth) is that I have discovered a listing of behaviors that almost exactly matches my experiences over the last 30 years or so with a number of people in my life. Knowing that there is a professionally-recognized reason why these behaviors occur (narcissistic injury?), and that there are professionally-recognized steps that I can take to avoid triggering these behaviors, is extrememly valuable to me. What is NOT needed is for me to tell anyone how I FEEL about the individual. What IS needed is practical advice on how to avoid triggering the disruptive/destructive behavior. That is what I am finding in the NPD literature (exluding SV stuff). And the professionals are saying to do almost exactly what I have discovered to do through trial and error over the last 30 years or so. Life would have been much better for all involved if I had had this information available to me from the beginning. - Ignore the label of NPD. The professionals are saying, "here is behavior, here is criteria, here is practical advice about how to avoid triggering the disruptive/destructive behavior". That is what matched my circumstances, not the label. However, as Lightworker has pointed out above, there IS a label to this bit of enlightened professional talk, and that label is NPD. - I think I understand the concerns being voiced above. But I think those concerns would apply only in a situation where I had first discovered the literature and then went in search of a person whose behaviors I could interpret to match the literature. What I am describing is a situation where I had many years of observing behavior, and then stumbled on literature that described that behavior. I'm not applying the literature to the behavior of a person picked at random. I'm applying known behavior that I've personally experienced repeatedly over time to the literature I've recently discovered. There is a big difference there.
bonnder	posted 7/17/07 3:29 AM     Re. diagnosing: - I am new to the language and may not say this exactly right, but hopefully you will get the point. Assume that the professional definition of the cause of NPD is more correct than wrong. That definition says there is a narcissistic injury that has occured to the NPD around the age of 18 months or so (mentally change this to be correct in whatever way I am off here). There is a great deal of dysfunctional behavior that comes out of the NPD if that narcissistic injury gets triggered or poked or trampled on (or whatever the correct wording might be) when they are an adult. If I don't know this, and I am around an NPD, I can cause them a good bit of pain by inadvertently provoking their narcissistic injury. As I inadvertently invoke/provoke their narcissistic injury, and they lash out in pain, I can become the target of that pain and my life is thus affected. If I become educated to the language of NPD and its likely causes, I can learn ways that I might avoid provoking the person's narcissistic injury. The number of times I inadvertantly cause pain to the NPD is reduced. And the disruption to my life and emotions is also reduced. - Sure, I can keep track of things over time and learn what to do and what not to do by trial and error. But it is a lot faster to read a book written by a professional and go - "ahhh!! So that's what's going on! Oh, and here is what I can do to help the situation. Great!" Which book is most likely to elicit that response from me - the book where the criteria/symptoms don't match the behavior I'm observing, or the book where they do match? Is anyone here arguing that the lay-person does not know enough to pick out a book or article where the criteria/symptoms described match the behavior being observed? Is anyone here arguing that a lay-person should not attempt to become part of the solution by reading books and articles where the criteria/symptoms discussed match the behavior being observed? Matching criteria to behavior is diagnosing. People have been successfully doing this non-professionally for ages. (How else does mom figure out what is wrong with baby when baby can't speak words??) - The scenario I have presented in the first paragraph above is valuable, both for the NPD and for the person dealing with the NPD (or any illness or disorder). It is valuable in that it can lead to reduced distress both for the NPD and for the observer. And the scenario I have presented above will not happen if I am educating myself to the language of schizophrenia and its likely causes when the person I am dealing with is actually a genuine NPD. In other words, if I am to be useful, I must be able to distinguish between the behaviors of NPD and the behaviors of Schizophrenia. This is really not hard to do when reading a book. Either the criteria/symptoms described match the behavior observed or they don't. - In correctly distinguishing between a scizophrenic and an NPD, I am diagnosing, even if only non-professionally. This diagnosing is a necessary thing and a valuable thing. And it is encouraged by the professionals in the business who actually are qualified to do the professional diagnosing. They expect the lay-person to be able to fit the criteria to the behavior (diagnosing). Why else would they write books about a particular illness or personality disorder? The writers of these books expect me to pick up their book on NPD if I am dealing with an NPD and to pick up their book on schizophrenia if I am dealing with a schizophrenic. In order to do this, I must be able (and willing) to distinguish between NPD behavior and scizophrenic behavior. Elsewise, how can I be expected to buy the correct book??? - On other forums, folks talk about going to their therapist with a list of symptoms/criteria. Upon hearing this list, the therapist says "assuming that your list of behaviors is correct, google on these words and read these books and it will help you understand what you are dealing with". That is diagnosing. If a person is well-read enough, he can do this on his own. That is, the lay-person can pick out, on his own, articles and books that address the behaviors he has identified. - What I am describing is nothing more than a process of educating oneself. And most people are bright enough to not buy a book about schizophrenia when they are dealing with an NPD. They can do this because most folks can reasonably match the behavior to the criteria. Diagnosing. At least an initial, general diagnosis. But this initial, more-correct-than-not diagnosis is useful, even if it is only to point the observer to literature appropriate for their circumstances and away from literature that is not appropriate. - I agree that any attempts at healing should be done under the supervision of a professional (and therefore the professional should have the last word on the diagnosis). But it is also good to remember that blood-letting ("bleeding") was at one time the treatment of choice used by professionals for healing.
bonnder	posted 7/17/07 3:34 AM     quote This need to predict a behavior almost looks like the first step in manipulating their behavior. Should we control others? Can we control others? unquote - Yes, exactly. Manipulating another person away from disruptive or destructive behavior is not always a bad thing. And learning to predict when that disruptive/destructive behavior is most likely to occur so that we can manipulate the person away from that behavior is also not always a bad thing. We are behaving irresponsibly if we have the ability to head off disruptive/destructive behavior and we refuse to do so, particularly when the individual either cannot or will not control themself. Those who have had to deal with disruptive/destructive folks on a moment-by-moment basis will perhaps understand this more quickly than those who have never had to deal with such folks. - If I can learn to manipulate my behavior so that it does not trample on narcissistic pain and provoke outrage, I should. If I can learn to manipulate anyone's behavior, not just the NPD, away from a disruptive outburst that would normally come forth and toward a more peaceful exchange of ideas, I should. - Anyone familiar with the manipulation of behavior that goes on when a parent distracts an upset child away from the source of the upset can understand my point. When the attention is re-directed (manipulated), the child settles down. Manipulation of another person need not always be a bad thing. Sometimes it can be a very good thing. - We are not all alike in our abilities to deal with life. Sometimes we need to help each other out, even if it involves manipulating someone away from disruptive/destructive behavior. Helping each other requires knowing each other. And knowing each other sometimes requires diagnosing. This diagnosing can be abusive, certainly. But it can also be helpful, if it helps us to better help the other person.
seeker	posted 7/17/07 2:11 PM       Bonnder, My 20 yr old son has been diagnosed with NPD. It is certain that, as a mom who has developed a codependent dynamic with this young man, my recent research and education gives me a better understanding of his behavior, of what will trigger outburst caused by narcissistic pain, and also how to accept my responsibility in the relationship. I am less angry and resentful towards my son for some of the things he has said or done. This alone influences my thoughts and actions toward my son and there is much less hostility exchanged. I am working on my codependency and understanding how my own addiction (as a co-dependent) only adds fuel to the fire of my son's damaged ego. Thanks for the helpful feedback. By the way, can you please share which particular book(s) you found the most enlightening?
Lightworker	posted 7/17/07 11:46 PM     Hi again. Good news. I told my brother about NPD and encouraged him to look into information about it. He actually did this and agrees that there "could be a chance" that mom has NPD. At least there's hope. Indeed to know is to be empowered. Criteria to make a lay diagnosis is the implied reason professionals write books for laypeople to buy. Thanks for that astute observation bonder. I told my brother to dive into the information slowly and use his best judgement while sifting through it all. In reading professional guidelines, making the judgement call myself on NPD and telling my brother about it, I may have given him the tools to effectively deal with her, lower his stress/bloodpressure and maybe save him from a heart attack that I know he's working on. In that case, I can thank those professionals who took the time to tell us laypeople about the disorder and clue us in the right direction. About Tony, correct me if I'm wrong but from reading the material at his website and his petition, I gleaned that he was overwhelmingly favoring the line of thinking that NPD was a behavioral disorder and not an organic one?? LW
Paper_Tiger	posted 7/19/07 6:18 PM     Maybe I missed something or got off-track, but I thought we were talking about diagnosing/labeling within the context of Lightworker's original post - specific to it's value in seeking validation or in healing from the effects of an emotionally abusive mother.. Beyond that: Bonnder - Yes - what you said is right. If you follow all of those steps carefully, you can extract the result you describe. I'm not trying to say it's wrong. I am trying to say that you (and Seeker for that matter) are not applying it within the context of Lightworker's original post: Lightworker has wounds and trauma from an emotionally abusive mother. That's all she needs to know in order to start working on healing herself. We do NOT need external validation or to label/diagnose others in order to heal ourselves. If you gain comfort or environmental improvement from manipulating others, that's great, but it doesn't heal anyone. If you want to put that kind of investment into diagnosing and manipulating others, go right ahead. Personally, I would rather put that investment into healing myself of any of the wounds or trauma that may have been inflicted and to work on building healthy boundaries. We never need to accept someone else's doo-doo. I just think it's far more efficient to set appropriate boundaries than trying to control when and how someone else poops (emotional output is what I think you call it). But hey - maybe you're a regular Leonardo Davinci when it comes to sculpting other people's doo-doo. Have at it. I don't understood why people feel it's their personal responsibility to 'distract the upset child' - especially when it's not theirs.. or even a child! (does not apply to Seeker) In the short term, you may save yourself the discomfort of listening to some crying, but you've really done nothing to help in the long term. My experience is that the people who put that kind of investment into that are doing it for themselves, with the idea that controlling others will impact their own feelings or environment, and usually are not consciously aware of it. These people are often 'stuck' in the finger pointing mode (diagnosing), even hiding behind the concept that they are 'helping' others while doing it. Meanwhile they have not moved on to accepting certain facts of life and history, and doing the hard work of healing. That's too painful for them. It's easier to spin their wheels trying to manipulate and diagnose others thinking that's a good substitute for the work they need to do to heal themselves. It's just another form of blaming out, and professional victims are really good at it. I'm not trying to say that understanding others has NO value, just not as much as people think it does. If you are spending more time and energy on diagnosing and controlling others than you are on your own wounds, it's a problem (IMO). I guess if you have no wounds, you've got time and energy to spend.. but you should spend it on personal growth.. not manipulating others.. IMO. and on another note: >>>>Criteria to make a lay diagnosis is the implied reason professionals write books for laypeople to buy.<<<<<< Professionals and non-professionals write books for a myriad of reasons. Generally, the professionals write scholarly pieces for consumption within the education and professional community. Non-professionals generally write books to make money off of the natural human tendency to take a victim posture. Criteria, such as those in the DSM, are most certainly NOT created to enable laypeople to engage in malpractice. They are created by professionals for professionals. The science cannot progress without there being a standard to provide a universal point of reference for those conducting study in the field.
seeker	posted 7/19/07 7:23 PM       Paper_Tiger, I understand your point. I am realizing that much of my effort to "help" my son is more about my own selfish needs as a codependent than anything else. I appreciate the perspective that it is also about placing the emphasis on controlling another in order to avoid healing myself.
Lifesong	posted 9/4/07 3:40 AM     I agree completely with Paper Tiger's comments throughout this thread. As non-professionals, we are not qualified to diagnose another. Nor should we. It is neither helpful to us nor to them. In my experience, most often when we have decided that another person is "NPD" and state that to others as if it were a fact and a medical reality, that statement says more about us than it does about them. It can say "I am hurt and want a ready way to view this", or "I want a label to attach to this so that others will sympathize with me", or "I want validation of my pain and no one is listening to me so, if I give info from a professional that smacks of my experience, perhaps someone will then see things the way that I see them", or "I have found a psychiatric problem with them and I understand it and will now help them (codependent)" or so many other possibilities. While it was very helpful to me to read of NPD after my mother was diagnosed, I realized right off that those DSM criteria were about her, and would not help me in further healing me. What I needed to focus on, still, was how I felt about how she was with me, and look at ways to address those feelings to build more security and self-knowledge and a stronger identity for myself. From there came stronger boundaries, and a greater sense of self, and less interest in complaining about her or trying to control her or change her or even gain sympathy from others over her poor treatment of me. The role of victim is useless. Her antics no longer had the ability to effect me as they had previously, as I was no longer focused on her at all but rather on my own healing and growth. Some of the examples of the poster's actions that she equates to the various diagnostic criteria show her misunderstanding of the meaning of the criteria... they are not examples of the various criteria, although to a layperson they would appear to be. This is one of the fallacies of we nonprofessionals trying to interpret diagnostic criteria with no training to do so and then slapping a label of NPD on our loved ones (or not so loved ones). Frankly, even with my mother's professional diagnosis of NPD, I prefer to think that she has narcissitic traits, as do many of us, so that I do make her into a monster (it is sooo easy to underestimate and/or villify those we don't like) but rather just see the truth of her and deal with the truth as I must but only as it directly relates to my life. My focus is on me; I have taken my eyes (and judgement) off of her. I am becoming free. Even now, with a

Back to Home  | Post New Topic