Author	Topic:   Being a Sinner
Pastor Eric (Moderator)	posted 4/27/07 0:19 AM     Pg. 56 Luther says to "sin boldly." I wonder how many of us really believe that. For Luther it meant that we are hopelessly trapped in sin. We cannot do anything that is not stained by sin. Yet I find many people who want to believe that they are not in bondage to sin. We try to cover over our sins, because we want to be respectable. But the confession, or admission of our sins makes us closer to God, for we acknowledge that we cannot do it ourselves. Who would you respect more, the one who admits there sin, or the person who seemingly has no faults?
Karen	posted 4/28/07 4:46 AM     I would definitely have more respect for the person who admits their sin. I'm more comfortable with other sinners like me. One area I've been thinking about lately is when you know something is a sin, you don't want to do it, but you go ahead and do it anyway. I know we are saved by God's grace, but how does it all fit together when you think about it, can't stop yourself, and still knowingly go ahead and do what you know you shouldn't do? Are we "playing fair" if we are counting on God's grace when we intentionally do the wrong thing?
Bill	posted 4/28/07 4:30 PM     I have to agree. It is very difficult to admit your mistakes to others, but at the same time, we need to openly confess or sins to acknowledge that we have done wrong. It also helps others to see that we have fallen short but through God's grace we are forgiven and may be able to help others that may be struggling with the same demons.
Trish	posted 4/30/07 0:19 AM     I agree also. I often hear people call Christians "hypocrites" because they think we think we are better than others, yet we do wrong things too. I think it helps for us to acknowledge our shortcomings to show we DO know we are sinners but acknowledge the "good news" to others as well.
Karen	posted 4/30/07 3:20 AM     When Luther said to "Sin boldly," how boldly was he talking about? Does that mean that since we know it is inevitable that we will sin, we should go for it and sin really big? Or, does it mean we shouldn't to try to hide our sins because we know we all sin?
Pastor Eric (Moderator)	posted 4/30/07 2:08 PM     I think we have the same question in two ways. Should we sin really big, and what about when we know it is wrong and still do it. Let start out with the idea that sin is something that seperates us from God. It is not that we can do anything or go anywhere that God isn't with us and for us. Rather, our actions prevent us from desiring the relationship with God. Let's think of simple stuff like dieting. I think I want that second bowl of ice cream, however the extra weight it causes will bother me. It also does all kinds of negatives to my physical being that makes me less likely to get up and move. Then when I can do something like go swimming, I choose not to, because I don't like the way I look in a swimsuit. So for people who know better and still do it, it really says that you may know what to do in your heart, but your head has a different idea. And as for really blowing it, yes, Luther would say, don't stop at a second bowl, if you want eat the whole carton, because then you will learn!! When you feel awkward because of the weight you will lean more heavily on the grace of God, that says it doesn't matter how I look, and I can confess to anyone who asks that I eat too much ice cream. I can go out looking like this because I know that God loves me! Sinning boldly is the confession to the world that I cannot save myself but I am relying on God. I am not trying to cover up my sins, or act as though I can. So sinningly boldly is like an alcoholic hitting rock bottom, you get to the point when you say, "I cannot do this myself" and that is when God can save us!
Trish	posted 4/30/07 5:40 PM     I must admit, I have never understood Luther's reasoning with this statement. But I don't see how it can mean what it seems to mean. Even if I want the whole carton of ice cream, and even if I end up eating it, I don't think I should feel good about it as an excuse of "well, I can't do anything about it, so why try? God will love me anyway." Our bodies are suppose to be temples to God, whether eating or sexually or mentally. Because I acknowledge I can't do it myself - does that mean I shouldn't be striving to improve myself each time I fall short? Sinning boldly seems like opposite ends of the spectrum - do you have any other materials to read about this?
Karen	posted 4/30/07 6:09 PM     I think that's where I am a lot of the time. I know what to do in my heart, but my head has different ideas. Getting them in sync is my challenge. What if I keep trying, but I die before I do what's in my heart and have continued to do what's in my head? That's a possibility with all sins, isn't it? I mean, we're always going to sin. Is part of it in the "trying" to do what is right?
Pastor Eric (Moderator)	posted 4/30/07 6:44 PM     None of us will ever defeat sin. Start with that statement. Do you agree with that? Do you accept that you are in bondage to sin? If so you understand that you will never live without some sin staining you. If you are so weak that you do the same thing over and over again, you should be able to admit I am weak and cannot help myself- as we claim in the Small Catechism "I cannot by my own reason or effort believe in Jesus Christ my Lord,or come to him." (Explaination of Third Article of the Creed) This is why the example of the alcoholic is so good, in the 12 steps they have to admit that they are powerless to help themselves and seek out a higher power. "Sinning boldly" means to us a variety of things. It is the person who wants a drink, because there is nothing wrong with it, but won't do it in public. If there is nothing wrong with it, don't hide it. It means that often times we manipulate situations to avoid the harsh consequences of our actions. The person hooked on pornography is cheating themselves out of a real relationship, so until they see how bad this is they will never change. Or again, every addict I met before seeking help thought that they were fine. Despite losing family, job, health, they could reason others were against them. Not until they are homeless, with no one to help them do they really see that they are to blame. Sin boldly is the old stories of parents who caught there kids smoking and had them light up the whole pack of cigerettes. Today, it might be abuse, because the hacking coughing youth learns to hate the smoke. Sinning boldly is the parent who wants to dance the way the kids do. The parent is making a fool of themselves but in it the kids see that if you can't do it in front of mom and dad maybe you shouldn't do it. Many times our sins remain because we hide them from the light. If you are serious about change, then put your sin in the light, confess it, talk about it, so that others are helping you, not offering false approval. Finally, Luther believed in sinning boldly, because our sin, our consciousness of our sin, should drive us to our Savior. Luther once commented that the Devil would mock him telling him that he was not good enough, or strong enough to do what was right, and while he would initially be frightened, the devil actually helped him, for in his fear he would run to the mercy of the Lord, who alone is good and strong enough to save us. The devil reminds him of the truth- I am a sinner and in need of a Savior. The only way we can lose salvation, is when we forget that, and try to save ourselves. Then once we acknowledge our sin, then we can surrender to God and let the spirit work in us. Not us doing good (Luther would say you are not capable of good) but spirit in me. Sunday's sermon at second service was that- the command- be filled with the Spirit.
Karen	posted 4/30/07 8:33 PM     Wow! Your explanation helped a lot, Pastor. None of us will ever defeat sin. That's hard for a "perfectionist" to give in to, but it is certainly less frustrating to accept that fact than to keep trying to do the impossible to the point you make yourself crazy. So, as long as we are trying and we are seriously asking God to help us, we will be okay? I guess the problem is some sins feel too good to stop after once or twice so we really are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves. I think some of the insecurity goes back to grace and the law. The law makes you feel like salvation is something you could lose if you don't do the right thing. And if you keep doing the same sin, it makes you feel guilty to count on grace to save you. But, we can count on grace, right? We just have to surrender to God and acknowledge our weakness and let the spirit work in us? Putting our sins in the light by telling others sounds very difficult. I can see where it would speed up the process of stopping that action though. Thanks for the explanation. This is an interesting topic.
Pastor Eric (Moderator)	posted 5/1/07 2:23 PM     Not to belabor the point but, no trying isn't the issue. If it takes effort on your part, it really isn't grace, or it diminishes the idea that Jesus died for you. You are okay (salvation-wise) when you quit trying to justify the gift God gives you by saying "I tried, I deserve this" or "Well, I was a good person" or even "I have a good heart even if I don't always show it" Robert Farrar Capon, an Episcoplian author in his book "Between Noon and Three" says that grace has to be intoxicating, but we always want to water it down. Grace is straight scotch, no water, no ice, and absolutely no ginger ale!" We will always water down the work of Christ, when we say we have to try, or we have to keep these commandments, or anything of the like. And when all those nay sayers protest by saying this is anarchy, we have to say yes, but it is the only way we learn. Until I was away from my family I didn't realize how important they were to me. Similarly, when I step away from the love and mercy of God, I begin to see how much it was sustaining me.
Trish	posted 5/1/07 5:41 PM     I was reading in "What Luther Says" and found this under forgiveness. On a sermon on Matt. 18: 21-35. God Saves from Sin, not unto Sin. He who sincerely desires the forgiveness of sins must at least have the resolve not to incur guilt any more, that is, to abstain from sins, to reform himself and become more pious. For to continue in sins and not to want to abstain from them but nonetheless to pray for the forgiveness of sins, is mocking our Lord God.
Karen	posted 5/2/07 5:42 PM     That puts it in scary perspective. I don't want to mock God just because I am weak. I hadn't looked at it that way.
Trish	posted 5/3/07 12:57 AM     There is a difference between asking God for forgiveness but still over eating and saying I can eat all I want because I know God will still accept me, and trying to do better and failing. God knows your heart, even if you end up eating a gallon of ice cream in one sitting.
Pastor Eric (Moderator)	posted 5/3/07 4:23 PM     Yes! I think that is the whole point and the balance on this issue. You may well fail to stop sinning, but your hearts desire must be that you want to stop. The words of Luther I think are aimed at those who are trying to manipulate God or the church. "I sinned, enjoyed it, but now you can't hold it against me." It is our "legalistic" thinking that says I know the rules and am going to use them against God. Thanks for the quote from Luther, and here are a few more: "When God, thorugh His grace, grants us forgiveness of sins without our merit, so that we need not purchase it or earn it ourselves, we are at once inclined to draw this reassuring conclusion and say 'Well, so we need no longer do good!' Therefore, in addition to teaching the doctrine of faith in His grace, God must constantly combat this notion and show that this is not at all His meaning. Sins are assuredly not forgiven in order that they should be committeed, but in order that they should stop; otherwise it should more justly be called the permission of sins, not the remission of sins. " and "I am completely steepedin, and saturated with, the article of the forgiveness of sins. I am dealing with it constantly, day and night; and all my thoughts are of Jesus Christ, my only Savior, who has atoned and paid for my sin. i grant the Law - and all the devils- nothing. If only a man can believe the forgiveness of sin, he is a blessed person." Or the question St. Paul asked "Should we sin so that grace abounds?" But we should not question that are sins are forgiven, but we should not think that some how we can "trick" God into excusing misbehavior or our rebellion.
Karen	posted 5/4/07 6:17 PM     I like what Trish said. "God knows your heart" and what Pastor said, "but we should not think that some how we can 'trick' God into excusing misbehavior or our rebellion." That puts things more into perspective for me. We know we are saved by grace, but we shouldn't approach sin in a rebellious manner of "I know it's wrong, but I'm going to do it anyway because God's grace will take care of it for me." That would be disrespectful to God. So if we think it is the right thing to do we should "sin boldly" but if we know it is NOT the right thing to do, that is not a time to "sin boldly." Do I have it right now??
Pastor Eric (Moderator)	posted 5/6/07 11:05 AM     i think we are on the right track, except I have to say again, you cannot do what is right. Another key component to our faith is to say that we are sinners and saints. That doesn't mean we are sometimes good and sometimes bad. It means that nothing you do is untainted by sin. It also means that there is nothing you do that isn't touched by the Holy Spirit as well. Because God knows your heart, God knows the hesitation in doing good, or the self motives that possess us. When we do things that are wrong, and willfully do them, God also knows where this path is taking you and how it might be used for good later. Here is another anology. A child has some clay, and wants to make something for Mother, for Mother's Day. The child has dreams of making wonderful statues, but quickly discovers that she cannot manipulate the clay in such way that looks as good as she imagines. Now comes the decisive moment. The child either gives up and tosses mom and call of hard clay and says "I tried, but I can't do it so here." or the child makes a candy dish or some distorted figure and says "Mom, I know it isn't very good, but I wanted to make something for you for Mother's Day. Here Mom, I wish it was better because I love you so much." Trish's point is relevent to the first example, because they didn't try very hard and didn't put it much effort but still wants to say that they really care. The second example is how Luther and presumably God wants us to offer our lives. It is never as good as we imagine it could or should be but we put in a real effort and offer it to God, our loving Father. We sin boldly, knowing that our lives which could be beautiful works of art look like misshaped candy dishes a lot of the time. But, I have seen a lot of clay "ash trays" and candy dishes proudly displayed in homes where they neither match the decor or have any practical purpose. Since "sin boldly" has garnered so much thought, what if we changed it to, I am still going to try to form my clay?

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